There has been a lot of discussion since Athens about foreign swimmers training in the United States. Most of them attend U.S. Universities, receive athletic scholarships, and compete at NCAA's. Some notable examples include Duje Draganja (Cal), Fred Bousquet and Kirsty Coventry (Auburn), Markus Rogan (Stanford), and the South African sprinters (Arizona). Some train in the U.S., but don't compete for a university (Inge de Bruijn). All of these athletes benefit from U.S. coaching, from training with U.S. swimmers, and in some cases, from financial support provided by U.S. entities (athletic scholarships). They all turn around and then win medals for other countries.
A couple questions: 1) What do you think about this arrangement generally? 2) Is it of benefit or detriment to U.S. swimming to have these foreign athletes training and competing here? 3) Should we be giving athletic scholarships, which are a scarce resource in swimming, to foreign athletes who will represent their own countries internationally instead of U.S.-born swimmers who will represent us internationally?
I'm sure there are other issues, but these come directly to mind.
Mr Goodsmith:
I will admit that the USA was greased in Greece in the Mens 100 Free. I remember Jim Lampley, sports commentator for NBC pointing out that it was one of the all time lowest performances in the 100 Free because it was the first time the USA and no one in either the semi final and the final. He also stated that the present NBC color analyst for swimming, one Rowdy Gaines went a faster time (49.80) than Jason Lezek did swimming in the heats with a time of :49.87 for 21st place. Ian Crocker swam a :49.73 for a tie for 17th place and was suppose to have a swim off for the semi final but the DQ slip for George Bovell was not done correctly by FINA officials and he was reinstated to swim in the semi final knocking Ian Crocker to 17th.
This was one of the biggest suprises/flukes/upsets at the Olympics because Jason Lezak went a :48.17 at the Olympic Trials in Long Beach about 6 weeks earlier and at that time was the 2nd fastest time in history only behind Hoggie. Ian Crocker went :46.25 in the 100 Free SCM at the recent NCAA Championships to break Alexender Popov WR of :46.74. Obviously these guys did not live up to there potential and would have easily made the finals if they swam like they did previously. In fact if Jason would have done that :48.17 he would have tied for the Gold Medal. He just had a bad meet just like Brendan Hansen did. If Brandan would have gone the 2:09.04 at Long Beach instead of the 2:10.87 he did at Greece he would have won the Gold Medal regardless what Kitajimi does.
If you take this event plus the two relay losses out, the USA has not done that bad at the last 2 Olympics in sprint freestyle. Losing to Australia by .19 was considered a major upset and Australia didn't even make the final for this relay in 2004. If you take that :50.05 split away from the sick Crocker and if he would have swam to his potential the result of the relay might have been different. Also remember the slam dunk in the 50 Free with Hall/Ervin or Ervin/Hall in Sydney.
The USA has 5 swimmers in the 100 Meter Free in the current FINA World Rankings which is more than any other nation. Italy has 4 swimmers and they did not even make the final in Montreal.
I think all of the countries are real close now but I still believe that the USA has more depth than anyone in sprint free events.
Originally posted by White Buffalo
And Geek, if you have not figured it out yet, the USA is in decline just like France and England!
I was referring to sports, not geo politics. And, we are not declining in sports.
Frank,
I've got to disagree with your assessment of the 400 free relay as this event is a barometer of our country's depth in sprint freestylers. We have been relatively weak in the sprint freestylers the last two Olympics. Relying on our oldest sprinter (Hall in the 50 free) is not impressive and shows that we are having some difficulties turning out as many great sprinters like we used to. The fact that we failed to place a SINGLE individual in the 100m free final was an absolute embarassment to the US in Greece. Think about it ....... NO ONE from the US in the finals in the 100m free. Jim Montgomery, Matt Biondi and Rowdy Gaines were probably suffering a mild stroke when they watched that event. It's unreal to fathom even when I think back about it today.
This country needs more emphasis on short course, NCAA style pure sprint style atheticism in my opinion. Long course emphasis over the past decade or so has tapped our sprinter programs and emphasis.
I have to disagree with you on the relay situation. I don't think anything is "under control" yet for the US.
John Smith
Ah, the geek weighs in...how did the audition for the Broadway musical adaptation of the movie Deliverance go? Did you get the part as third hillbilly? Speaking of North Carolina's contribution to sports...well, right...
Frank,
You are ever the optimist. I give you one place in the top eight if everything had gone better in Greece in the 100 free. You have too many "ifs" in your argument. Personally, I don't think Lezak could've taken down Hoogie even on a good day.
Yes the Hall/Ervin 50 in 2000 was sweet, but there's not been a replacement of similar caliber in 8 years. Relying on an old man like Gary is a lame excuse for American sprinters. The pipe needs to be constantly refilled and replaced. But don't worry, we'll train Freddy Biscuits nice and hard the next few years so he can continue to break 19.0 short course yard and then pound our butts in China.
Could Ian have top 8 at Greece. Hell yes.... when he's on he's god like. Two guys does not a relay make.
I still don't think the US is where they should be on the 50 and 100m free.
John Smith
Lezak has consistently proven that he cannot compete in major international competition. (His recent win in Korea proves my point) If the USA is relying on Jason in 2008, our country is in trouble unless he changes over the next two years. If you go back and look at his Olympic splits, he never was in the race as he went out slow! Truly, that strategy is so ridiculous it borders on insanity. If one wanted to "save", one would go out fast and shut it down when advancement was insured, rather than try to accelerate when everyone is blowing by you with meters to go!
Crocker was ill and has proven since the Olympics what he can do when healthy. His recent 42.6 100 yard freestyle at The Texas Invitational demonstrates his capability when healthy and unshaved unlike his relay split, which was the slowest at the Olympics. His world record last summer in the 100 meter fly leaves no doubt.
Hansen also proved himself last summer by winning 3 golds at the World Champonships.
My recollection is this thread started with foreigners training in our college system. Simply put, we trained the majority part of the South African winning 400 meter relay or Arizona. And, our sprinter outlook for 2008 looks bleak, unless Jones, Graves, Weber-Gale or someone steps up! On the men's side, at 9.9 scholarships, it is, at the least, painful to see these scholarships go to foreigners but with the sport of swimming dying in America, who can blame a Mark Shubert for going out and getting Mellouli? Or, who can blame Florida for probably have 5 languages spoken in their locker room? It is my opinion that the problem at the least partially rests with USS swimming and the poor vision that it previously has implemented dating back more than a decade. The individuals who implemented a flawed vision no longer hold positions of power, but the "hang over" lingers. If grass root age group swimming can be remodeled, maybe more "athletes" will be available for the college coaches to select from. But based on the current age group structure, mom and dad shall continue to head to soccer tournaments and not marathon age group swimming meets lasting days, which leave college coaches with less talent to choose from. At least, to my knowledge, down south at the University of Texas, where there is not snow and ice like outside my window, only Americans and an occassional dual citizen are recruited, but again, if a guy can go 18.7 like Dave Marsh's Frenchman, I support Dave Marsh!
And Geek, if you have not figured it out yet, the USA is in decline just like France and England! For the past 5 centuries, the country that began a century as the world superpower NEVER ended the century as the world superpower.
Just an FYI for everyone....Deliverance was filmed in GA.....and GA is ANYTHING but hillbilly.....and for that matter....NC has some great Univ's like Duke, Wake Forest, NC, NC State to name a few......
You guys are on fire, and I mean that as a compliment. Your comments on freestyle sprinters and the 400 FR, the way you break down recent results and look at trends... This is what the discussion forums were meant to be.
So, what do you think of the medley relays? The U.S. men have never lost, but we were all worried in 1996. To what to you attribute our crushing dominance in the stroke sprints? It seems to me this tests the breadth rather than the depth of a nation's swim program. What's your take?
Matt
I'm sorry, I missed your facts on how many of the 10K athletes we trained at the last Olympics to support your statement.
And, what was your comment about the US using foreign born athletes to bolster our medal count? Is that ok?
I suppose also checked the facts that show the US has won about the same number of overall medals at the Olympics for the past few decades. This, despite the fact that participation in the Olympics is up 40-50% AND there are rules implemented specifically designed to thwart our dominance.
For instance, in 1952 there were 69 countries and 5K athletes and the US won 76 medals (1st overall). In 1976 there were 92 countries and 6K althetes and the US won 94 medals (3rd overall). In 2004, there were 202 countries and 11.1K athletes and the US won 103 medals (1st overall). In 1952 the US medaled in 8/11 swimming events (72%). In 2004 the US medaled in 24/32 swimming events (75%). Couldn't find data on 1976. It doesn't look like we medalled in 1896 in swimming, where 4 events were held.
The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
