Foreign swimmers training in the U.S.

"How can you now claim you aren't an isolationist when you have stated in big bold caps to close the border on this thread? " Hey, let my neck off the matt here guys....I said, CLOSE THE BORDER TO ILLEGAL ALIENS.....ONES THAT ARE NOT AUTHORIZED ENTRY BY THE US GOV.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by aquageek Have I inadvertently backed myself into a supporter of V02Max and early blooming? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Geek....PLEASE...and I AM BEGGING HERE....tell me you are NOT lumping me into THAT.....;) That hurts.....

Originally posted by ehoch Well - he pretty much says it all -- selfish, narrow, but would still like to see a cap. I don’t think any of us favor limiting athletic scholarships to foreign athletes (PLEASE NOTE we favor limiting scholarships not athletes) disagree that this is a narrow America first attitude. Although for most of the posters selfish is the wrong term, since not many have any personal gain from this. Now if we want to really look at narrow and selfish, look at the foreign athlete who with all the available free education in Europe, decides for purely personal selfish reasons, to forgo this vast pool of free education to come to the US and take a precious limited resource, a swimming scholarship. Or look at the selfish coach who searches the world for the fastest swimmers to improve his placement in conference and NCAA championships, with little or no regard of how the individual will benefit the school or the school benefit the student. And I agree with Wielgus’s comment “I think, though, that the most realistic approach would be to recognize the value of diversity in athletics, yet have some sort of governor on how much scholarship money could be allocated to foreign athletes.”

I'm not sure that the decline in U.S. Track and Field is proven to be rooted in the delivery of college scholarships to foreign athletes. Indeed, is that a cause or rather, and effect? It is a complicated question. Here are some examples of alternative explanations: 1. As to long distance events, the decline of of participation in high school track and field, lack of media exposure compared to basketball, football and baseball, the road race boom, marathons, the expansion of age group road racing. See the entire study at www.designingwbt.com/.../research.htm 2. The decline in overall youth fitness at pe4life.com/youthsportselitism.php 3. That changing popularity of different sports. For example www.decatursports.com/.../soccer_participation.htm These are just a few examples without any in depth study. My point being that I'm not aware of any evidence that giving scholarships to non-citizen athletes is having any signficant impact on the quality of U.S. Olympic/International competition. If you have the evidence, I'd love to see it . . . let's not confuse opinions and beliefs with provable facts. carl

Several Points Remember the days of three swimmers from each country, and sometimes the USA would go 1-2-3? We have always been the land of opportunity, where someone from the USA with potential can make good. When the foreign invasion of atheletes started in track, the USA was strong, and it was just some college coaches wanting to look good. But now 25 years later, our track and field teams are much weaker. The talent pool seems much smaller. But is it really? Or is it just that some teams win NCAA championships every year with large numbers of non USA citizens. Without college athletic scholarships going to americans eventually swimming will be like track. I have coached swimmers who had just as much talent as some of the foreign swimmers who took the top college athletic scholarships. They went to colleges with smaller programs, less opportunity to succeed. I agree with Smith Handing over this money over to foreigners without citizenship is a slap in the face to American kids training hard for the financial opportunity

Originally posted by breastroker Several Points Remember the days of three swimmers from each country, and sometimes the USA would go 1-2-3? We have always been the land of opportunity, where someone from the USA with potential can make good. When the foreign invasion of atheletes started in track, the USA was strong, and it was just some college coaches wanting to look good. But now 25 years later, our track and field teams are much weaker. The talent pool seems much smaller. But is it really? Or is it just that some teams win NCAA championships every year with large numbers of non USA citizens. Without college athletic scholarships going to americans eventually swimming will be like track. I have coached swimmers who had just as much talent as some of the foreign swimmers who took the top college athletic scholarships. They went to colleges with smaller programs, less opportunity to succeed. I agree with Smith Kenyon College, Drury College. there are wonderful swimmign programs at many small schools. also, I thought that US runners held more world records than did all other countries combined. that was back in 2001 so it might have changed but I don't think so. what is good about less US kids having to go into sports to get to college is that they have a few other opportuinities. do you know that in the general college populationonly about 55% graduate. the number get larger with Div II & III schools. It is almost like getting married. So much failure!

Originally posted by botterud I'm not sure that the decline in U.S. Track and Field is proven to be rooted in the delivery of college scholarships to foreign athletes. Indeed, is that a cause or rather, and effect? It is a complicated question. Here are some examples of alternative explanations: 1. As to long distance events, the decline of of participation in high school track and field, lack of media exposure compared to basketball, football and baseball, the road race boom, marathons, the expansion of age group road racing. See the entire study at www.designingwbt.com/.../research.htm 2. The decline in overall youth fitness at pe4life.com/youthsportselitism.php 3. That changing popularity of different sports. For example www.decatursports.com/.../soccer_participation.htm These are just a few examples without any in depth study. My point being that I'm not aware of any evidence that giving scholarships to non-citizen athletes is having any signficant impact on the quality of U.S. Olympic/International competition. If you have the evidence, I'd love to see it . . . let's not confuse opinions and beliefs with provable facts. carl Carl, Over the week end, I spoke with a prof who is a coach in a relatively small college & teaches PE. He gave every point you just made as to why more scholarships are going to foreingers. then I was around soem kids all under 14 yrs of age. These weren't the kids I'm usually arund who are very atheletic. None of these kids were physically fit. Almost all were what I woud term very overweight ( at least 7-10 pounds). There were six boys. No way could any of them participate in a sporting event right now. I wonder how many of them will grow up & be very obese?

Mr Goodsmith: I think this is where Matt wanted you to post your thoughts with the other thoughts you and everyone had a while back. I have to kinda of disagree with you and think the Men's 400 Free Relay is back under US control after a long 8 year dry spell. The fact that the USA team went 3:13.77 which was only .60 off of the World Record by South Africa will attested to that. I agree with what Jeff Commings said and believe the USA was more focused on this relay in Montreal than they were in Athens. I remember the distractions with healthy Hall and sick Crocker and they both were not on the relay this past summer. I could not believe the South Africans didn't even field a team at the World Championships because both Roland Schoeman and Ryk Neethling were having a great year. Those other 2 guys Darian Townsend and Lyndon Ferns had great NCAA meets and if any one of these guys gets injured they don't have applicable back ups to go in the 3:13 area. Look at the USA and the potential that we have for 2008. Led by new swimmers like recent USMS and maybe American Record holder Nick Brunelli who defeated 2 time Olympic Gold medalist Pieter van den Hoogenband in 100 Free last week at the US Open. Add Ben Wild Man Tobriner, Garrett Weber Gale, Gabriel Woodward, along with the experienced veterns like Lezak, Dusing, Walker, Phelps, Crocker, and Hall and I don't think anybody is going to touch the USA. Also I think the USA is in control of the 800 Free Relay after only winning the relay once since 1988 at either a World Championship and Olympics and have proven to be a threat to the 7:04.66 World Record by Australia in 2001. I think they can go better than 7:06.58 that they did in 2005.

Smith: Stop the pathetic Canadianesqe whining about the demise of all things US Sporting. We are still the dominant power in the Olympics, a fact that hasn't changed EVER. You can pick and chose a race or sport here and there but overall we are still the ones to beat, even with the explosion of athletes completing in the Olympics. I mean, look at the complete and total collapse of the French and British in the Olympics the past century. Now, there are two countries who can cry about their reduced status. If the US turned all our attention to one sport, like the Aussies do in swimming, the Chinese do in gymnastics/diving or the Canadians do in men's syncronized water ballet there'd be no complaints. But, since we excel at everything, it's ok for us not to be the best in absolutely every race every time. It'll all come around, even if we give 2 or 3 Angolan swimmers a scholarship at IUPUI from time to time.

Originally posted by Peter Cruise Speaking of North Carolina's contribution to sports...well, right... I realize it's hard to beat Ben Johnson, Canada's finest addition to the sporting world, but here in Deliverance country (btw - Burt Reynolds went to FSU, which is in Florida) we can claim Michael Jordan, Arnold Palmer and gull80 among our elite athletes. You keep it up and we'll send our second tier football players to your football development league. Wait, we already do that. Dang, you guys have it all up there.