Foreign swimmers training in the U.S.

Originally posted by Blue Horn America is built upon specific principles and beliefs and it has made this country great. Immigrants that have bought into these principles and beliefs have made this country great. Immigrants that seek to turn America into just another country indistinguishable from the rest of the world will be its downfall. My grandfather's (my mother's father) family came here from Poland and Russia. They came here because this is the greatest most compassionate country that has ever existed. Well put, Blue, although you wouldn't be able to tell America's compassion from this thread. It's funny, because I thought the United States was formed out of opression and intolerance. At least, that's the reason my grandparents emigrated from Ireland. Well, that, and lack of food. I feel badly for people from other countries trying to get "their piece of American pie" as it was put, because the people who founded this country fought, and gave up so much to get ahold of that pie, and now they get to sit back and watch us hoard it. So much for the American spirit. I say that international students have every right to the scholarships offered by the universities they attend, and if they are good enough to make the world stage and compete for their home countries, hooray for them. Except England. I don't like them. It's an Irish thing. :p And Dima, Geek, you guys are way out of line. There was so much argument about keeping on topic with the threads, and now you guys are turning this topic about international students and swimming scholarships into the next Cold War. Go fight on the Republicans' chat room.

Stephanie, I don’t know of any elite US swimmers that went to Australian universities with swimming scholarships. Of whom are you speaking? I also couldn’t track down the financial aid section of the Bill of Rights. I must have an old copy. But back to the original questions. As the parent of a soon to be college freshman student/athlete (a swimmer of course), I would love to see more scholarship opportunities offered to US swimmers. But the reality of the situation is that coaches at top schools are under great pressures to produce championships and to place high at NCAA. One way to score at NCAA’s is to buy a couple of world class foreign swimmers, at the expense of partial scholarships to a bunch of real good domestic swimmers. I would love to see the NCAA cap the amount of athletic scholarships to foreign athletes to 10% of total scholarships. For me it is an issue of opportunity and reward, not of international competition. Over 95% of US scholarship swimmers will NEVER represent USA in international competition. But how many kids will choose to quit swimming in college, because there is no reward for all their hard work? How many kids (particularly boys) quit swimming because for most there is no future in swimming after high school (they don’t all know they can swim Masters). How many would stay in swimming if they were give even a partial scholarship in college? Is it important that the NCAA All-Americans all be Americans? No, but it would be nice to see at least 50% that can speak English. Selfish? Protective? Guilty!… Just don’t get us started on Title 9

I have to say that Tom and I don't agree on this one. I have no problem with this situation and am not aware of any situations where top calibre swimmers are denied scholarships or admission because of a foreign student. There are hundreds of millions of dollars of scholarships that aren't used every year so these few swimmers aren't denying anyone an education. We live in a global economy. In order to compete you bring in folks from around the world. A person we give a swimming scholarship to over a working lifetime will more likely return that gift a hundred fold to our country in various forms over their lifetime.

OK, personally I'm fine with foreign athletes training in the US. It happens and will continue to happen. We've got some great coaches and athletes are able to train with great peers. Look over lines on maps / nations and do whats best for mankind. I'd prefer US swimmers getting scholarships. Over the years Eddie Reese at UT has had few foreign swimmers and none to hardly any on scholarship. This hasn't been the case for many other schools. Several foreign swimmers won and scored well at last years div 1 ncaa's The other part of this worth mentioning are dual citizens, I've swum with several swimmers who were born in the US and lived in the US, but their parents were citizens of other countries, or dual citizens. These swimmers weren't fast enough to make the US olympic team, or didn't want risk trying to make the US Olympic team, but they could make another countries Olympic squad. like Mexico, Hungary, or other countries who's swim squads aren't as fast. That's fine with me too, my friends got to have an Olympic experience. One example is Zubero in the 200 M back in 1992, he swam for Spain at the barcelona olympics and won gold. Ande Originally posted by justforfun There has been a lot of discussion since Athens about foreign swimmers training in the United States. Most of them attend U.S. Universities, receive athletic scholarships, and compete at NCAA's. Some notable examples include Duje Draganja (Cal), Fred Bousquet and Kirsty Coventry (Auburn), Markus Rogan (Stanford), and the South African sprinters (Arizona). Some train in the U.S., but don't compete for a university (Inge de Bruijn). All of these athletes benefit from U.S. coaching, from training with U.S. swimmers, and in some cases, from financial support provided by U.S. entities (athletic scholarships). They all turn around and then win medals for other countries. A couple questions: 1) What do you think about this arrangement generally? 2) Is it of benefit or detriment to U.S. swimming to have these foreign athletes training and competing here? 3) Should we be giving athletic scholarships, which are a scarce resource in swimming, to foreign athletes who will represent their own countries internationally instead of U.S.-born swimmers who will represent us internationally? I'm sure there are other issues, but these come directly to mind.

Here are a few of my random thoughts: 1. International students improve the diversity of college communities and the greater the interaction between students of different cultural, socio-economic, religious, and so forth backgrounds the better the college experience. This in turn pays off in a benefit to society and (hopefully) improved cross cultural understanding. 2. Eliminate all athletic scholarships. Make all scholarships available based on academic potential and need, making the driving ambition providing access to a college education to someone who otherwise might not have that access . . . not on winning NCAA chanpionships. 3. As a corollary of the above, let all student athletes be just that, student athletes just like they are in Div III who play for love of the game. Aside from my above set forth pipe dreams, I see no harm in giving athletic scholarships to international students, if we're going to give them for sports, then give them to the best/fastest/strongest. As I said above, international students enhance the college community and the college experience for all by exposing students to different cultures. On the other hand, restricting scholarships based on national origin strikes me as a very negative value, smacking of xenophobia. And Title iX has done an awful lot of good, but that's another discussion. I guess that's more than my 2 cents . . . . carl

I remember one year when Little Rock-Arkansas stacked their water polo team with international players. If you could get enough of their players ejected (by picking up 3 majors), they would have to put in their sole US player (with no one else on the bench). Perfectly legal, but taken to that extreme, unsatisfying. (As in all things, moderation is best.)

I'm against non citizens getting the scholarships. It is American money and it should be spent on Americans 1st! It is the same thing as in our personal lives, you take care of your own first, THEN you help others. What person in their right mind would give away their money and let their family starve?

Elaine....Well said....

Originally posted by hooked-on-swimming Heck, just from my home country Russia an estimated 100000 fine scientists(!!!) are working in the US contributing TONS to America!!!Are Russians whining about it?Well, actually, yes, because it is painfull to see your best to go and improve another country .But should they whine?Heck no!!!If those guys were provided with the living(money) US has to offer they would have never left...So America is using the rest of the world pretty darn well(which I have to admit is very smart!!!), so let's not talk about what's fair and what's not! Tom and I have intellectual differences on this, which is fine, but you are flat wrong in your assertion. The sole reason US companies outsorce to foreign nations (India, China, Russia, Brazil) is the labor cost, not the brain power. We have the brains here. A US resource costs anywhere from 2.5 (India) to 8 times (Russian, China, Brazil) as much as these foreign sources (white collar labor). I deal with this every single day from a funding perspective and I assure you there is no reason other than economics driving this. And, you are also incorrect that these outsourced folks are contributing solely to the US. It's very lucrative for the home countries, check out India. Countries are lining up to provide cheaper and cheaper labor to realize the vast economic benefits to the home countries economy. It's also completely off-topic. The notion of outsourcing to cheap labor pools is not the same as foreign swimmers on US scholarships.

Elaine, I'm going to assume that by "taking care of ours first", you mean the admittance of American students to American universities, and that "then helping others" refers to the international students in the universities. As far as taking care of ours, I think we've more than got that covered, thanks to the US citizen or permanent resident-only requirement for the Free Application for Federal Student Aid. That provides our American students with the Pell Grant, SEOG Grant, Stafford Loan, Perkins Loan, PLUS Loan, and Federal Work-Study Program. I'm sure y'all have heard of those. The reason international students are using athletic scholarships to get into American universities is because that's the only way they can pay for it. If you want more Americans to get the scholarships, maybe the government should consider opening the FAFSA to every student. That is, unless you think only Americans are entitled to furthering their education. And for those of you who think international students should become permanent residents if they want to swim for our schools, I want you to think about moving permanently to someplace like, oh, Japan, and leaving your family and friends behind. It's not like they can just pack up their families and bring them here, because you're right, US citizenship isn't just paperwork. And who are you kidding by thinking that international students are only in American universities to swim? Don't be ignorant. I'm pretty sure the three international swimmers at ASU aren't getting Speedo endorsements. But I can tell you they're getting an education. Cuz face it, how many swimmers do you know, American or not, who are swimming their four years of elegibility and then dropping out? THEY AREN'T, although, if you want to talk wasting money, let's talk about the losers I went to school with who attended one big party for three years on the government, and ended up flunking out their junior year, or majoring in pre-law, and then getting rejected by every law school in the country because of their 2.1 GPA. But I guess it's better to have American students wasting American money, than to have non-Americans actually using it, right? Geek, my sincerest apologies for calling you a Republican. :D