Super teams

Given the way this varries between LMSCs, it seems rather silly to even keep track of team awards at Nationals. Here in New England, the NE LMSC has I believe four teams: Maine Masters (everyone in Maine), Vermont Masters (which is I think a very small team), Great Bay Masters (which is probably 100-150 or so), and then New England Masters (which is everyone else, about 1500). New England Masters is a 'super-team', in that it's really just a pile of smaller workout groups. I'm a member of NEM, but my workout group is probably over 100 people. We tend to clean up on the One Hour Swim every year, because we do get to compete as a 'super team'. But frankly, Masters Swimming is much more of an individual accomplishment activity. I don't swim because my team will win. I swim because I want to. The biggest thing you get is relays. -Rick

Mark, I'm glad to see the idea was discussed at "the top". I'm still not clear why it would be hard to tell the superteams? It only seems to be an issue at Nationals... Couldn't people indicate whether or not they were part of a "superteam" on their entries? (of course it would have to be defined) If there is enough of a coordination between these superteams to make relays (amongst people who have never seen each other before!) I can't imagine it would be too much of a stretch for these same people to handle this issue. Just a thought... Karen

I think I'm probably just not understanding this. I'll use my team as an example, since I'm familiar with it: We have about 350 people. We all work out at Heather Farm Park in Walnut Creek with 3 coaches. We enter meets (those that do) as WCM (Walnut Creek Masters). We are a club team. Shouldn't that be the only delineation needed from these SUPERTEAMS? Perhaps the registrar from each LMSC could provide the meet directors of national championships with the teams that are club teams. In Pacific Masters (LMSC) that would be easy as we are all club teams. I do think that there should be Large, Medium, and Small divisions still (among club teams). And perhaps there should be delineations among the SUPERTEAMS as well? Again, I don't have a problem with SUPERTEAMS swimming relays, but I don't think it's fair to score them against the club teams.

Awesome explanation. Thank you. Now I think I get it. Yes, it does sound like this could be a bit of a challenge... I'd be willing to help. I'm fairly well-organized! (That whole teaching thing ya' know.) Seriously, though, I'd be willing to do whatever to help sort it all out. This issue really needs to be addressed. Heck, if MLB can add teams and do scheduling- we can do this! :p Thanks again, Mark :) Karen PS Did you move?

What defines a Super Team? It can't be an LMSC with only 1 Club as registered in that LMSC. Walnut Creek as one club has more swimmers than Iowa Masters, Utah Masters, and as many as the whole state of Wisconsin. There are other Clubs that operate out of LMSC's around the country that are truly National and have swimmers swim for them living all over the country and could be classifield as Super Teams. A couple of years ago in an older thread which I believe is no longer active this was debated over and over. A person named Charley from Oregon was upset that there were no restrictions on where individuals should swim and anybody that does not swim in the area they reside or train was cheating and contributing to creating a super team. The consensus was that as long as we have rules allowing anybody to swim anywhere they want and not be restricted to swimming in an LMSC for a club where they train or reside, we have to live with a fact that Clubs will be different. Freedom to choose any registered club or LMSC is a right than USMS allows anyone. As an example, Mark hear could have a choice to swim with his old friends in Arizona, in Kentucky where he currently resides, or Virginia which is who he represented last year. That is his choice just like anybody else has a choice and that is why you will never be able to completely control this. People don't do this to create a super team but do it for there own personal reasons.

OK, this is becoming clearer to me. It hadn't dawned on me that people are living in different places and competing on teams that are far away... I do agree that people should have a choice of which team to swim for, etc., but then they should absolutely have different distinctions. I was just thinking that we have people on our team who live in Utah, but they are not full members because they don't attend our workouts. (They moved and had been on our team) However, they can still swim relays with us. Should there be a distinction between entire teams (or workout groups or whatever these small bands of swimmers are called) joining a SUPERTEAM, in the case of Illinois for example, and the individual belonging to a team because of something like moving? I see a distinction there that would need to be addressed... I think three things need to occur: 1. Some new rules need to be made (that help the club team). 2. Rules need to be made and clarified. Perhaps even new definitions? 3. A plan for implementation of the new rules.

The issue of large or small teams is always an issue, even within the State of Ohio. How do you fairly deal with the Big teams from the big city, who have LOTS of resources to the small town teams. And the issue behind the issue is...how do you ENCOURAGE the small teams to keep coming to the meets, when they get out scored. (the obvious answer is the same thing the USMS does, small, medium and large awards). I remember several other sub-issue tha came up the last time this was discussed - for profit teams v.s. 'just want pool time groups' (different emphasis and it makes a difference if you have someone driving/pushing the communicaiton) - City Size - Distance between cities (Lake Erie LMSC - everything is basically NEXT DOOR - as opposed to 2-3 hour drives for us) -Meet participation level

Karen, The confusion starts with teams and clubs. Within USMS we define a club to be "an organization or group of permanent character that is a member of USMS,registered through an LMSC and that actively promotes and/or participates in Masters swimming." These are all the groups that register with your LMSC and are recognized by USMS. In your case, Walnut Creek Masters is the club. In my case, Swim Kentucky Masters is the club. USMS also allows teams to exist within clubs. These are defined as "a group of swimmers representing the same club in a competition." Teams can exist within a club, but doesn't exist external to the club. In my case, I swim with Crescent Hill Masters. In meets within the Kentucky LSMC we compete against the other teams within our club. However, as far as USMS is concerned, in competition we are still Swim Kentucky Masters. It might be possible to group clubs based on if they consist of multiple teams of not. However, currently, when a club registers with USMS, that information is not captured. However, I don't think that would be hard to change. I do think the issue of how club are organized will be a challenge. Is there a difference between a club that has 3 teams located in three different cities and a club that has no separate teams, but has practice locations in three different cities? Are both a super team or only the first? Then one has to wonder if we did adopt something like this, would we have superteams reorganize themselves to get out of the superteam category, but still operate as they currently do. All it would require would be changing how the club competes within the state. This is similar to the problem we have had in the past of clubs asking slower swimmers to be unattached so they coculd lower their numbers and compete in the small team division at nationals.

I'd be curious to hear how you would organize it without telling people they can or can't swim for certain teams.

Skip, I don't think an LMSC that has only one club would necessarily be a super team. Nor would I recommend that as a rule. Rather I think super teams could be determined as a club that is made up of multiple teams. If an LMSC only had one club and they acted as the same team all year, I see no reason why we wouldn't consider them as a club. However, when 3 different teams who are independent of each other all year come together for out of state competitions and nationals, I think we could recognize a difference. Our ability to fairly detect this would depend on a consistent way of registering teams within clubs. I don't think the super teams are bad either. In both Arizona and Kentucky I've been a part of super teams. In areas with lots of small teams, it is a great way to have teammates at nationals and some fun relays. However, I do see the point of individual clubs feeling like they have to combine with others to be competitive and that is of concern. I would rather see a situation where super teams and individual clubs both have opportunities to compete without feeling like their structure needs to change to be competitive. A super team and non-super team division at nationals might accomplish this. As for members joining teams not it their geographic area, I see no problem with that. I am sure there are those would disagree, but I think that is a separate issue from how teams are recognized for competiton.