Super teams

Hi, I think that the "Super Team" concept is viewed as teams that comprise the entire LMSC and their sole purpose is the for the creation of relays at a National or regional event. There are more swimmers in States such as CA, TX, FL, thus a club team may consist of 350 or more swimmers. This is why I think some LMSC formed "Super Teams" in hopes of competing at a more even or level playing field. Super Teams are not a bad thing. Here in the Ohio LMSC we have 2 (as I see it) "Super Teams", they are GOST and SWOM. What is the difference you ask? SWOM is comprised of swimmers that live in the Southwest part of the state, primarly the Cincinnati & Dayton areas. GOST is made up prmarily of the Columbus area and north western Ohio LMSC. The reason that there are 2 is due to the geography of Cincinnati in relation to places such as Indianapolis, Louisville and Lexington KY. It was important for swimmers in Cincinnati to have an identity that reflected where we live and train. We see each other on a regular basis. Swimmers from the Cincy area travel to more meets and host more meets than our northern counterparts. It was rather strange to say that one lived in Cincinnati, but represented an entire LMSC. What we did with SWOM was to try an help promote Masters swimming at a regional level. I would hope that this helps generates more teams within our LMSC to regionalize more and focus on building stronger programs.

Meg, I was talking to my husband about this. He totally understands your point of view, as do I, because he grew up in CT (speaking of small states)! As far as the competition goes: we too are lucky if we get 50 swimmers to attend Nationals. It's expensive, far, have children, jobs, etc... everyone has these things going on, no matter where we live. I think it's awesome that you can come together as a team for meets, but we're (WCM) a team ALL THE TIME. You all have educated me, thank you, and I really do see what you are saying and understand it :) Again, and I'm being redundant I know, but if USMS is going to have team competitions there should be a club team division and a SUPERTEAM division. And if I'm going to say that, I should probably bring up the whole "residency" thing. Although I don't want to because that's a can of worms I don't have an answer for! By residency I mean that perhaps there should be a rule that you belong to the team within 100 square miles of where you live (or whatever number is agreed upon- it might be different in different areas) etc. WAIT,WAIT don't hit me! I think it's not necessarily a good idea for several reasons: how do you enforce this? is it fair? it would probably require restructuring, blah blah blah I do believe that addressing this issue is a huge undertaking, but I also think that it is important and some changes need to be made. Rob, All 12 members in North Dakota would not be in the same size team division as WCM unless we had a similar number, which has been the case at many LC Nationals. We too haven't been able to put together relays at several LC Nationals, but oh well, that's just the way it was. We weren't upset about it. To answer your question, no.

I was noticing that at the 2001 Short Course Nationals, Walnut Creek had 152 swimmers entered in the meet. In the 1999 Short Course Nationals they had 144 swimmers entered in the meet. How is anyone outside the Pacific LMSC going to compete with that? The LMSC size is 10,000 which is 10 times larger than most LMSC sized clubs. These statistics are in no way intended to discredit the Walnut Creek Masters swim program who probably have one of the best if not the best masters swimming program in the country. I have vast respect for Kerry O'Brien and staff and what he has accomplished. Since 1996 Walnut Creek has won 15 USMS National Championships at USMS National Championship meets. This was against all types and sorts of clubs and teams. If you did not get larger club/teams to compete against a club of this size they would never be challenged both in relays and in team scoring. I don't like to say super teams because I define them differently than others. A super team to me is one that is put together for the specfic purpose of winning team championships. It's focus is primarily on the recruitment of elite swimmers for that purpose. The club exists to win individual championships, relay championships, team championships, and break National/World Records. The club can be comprised of in any possible way to accomplish its mission or goals. Within an LMSC, outside an LMSC, individuals spread across the country, etc. Some LMSC clubs could fit that category and some not. History in National Championships show that most LMSC Clubs score well when the championships are close to home. Usually the host Club or someone nearby usually wins the championship. I think the intention of the majority of LMSC club teams is to have fun and be competitive. As it was pointed out earlier, because of LMSC size and club and team size, you don't get very many people that go to Nationals in the smaller LMSC's or regions of the country so this makes up for that. Otherwise you would have a lot of people feeling like they swim Unattached. Meg's example in Kentucky about Hawaii and Tempe explain that clearly.

Fritz, As Mark pointed out the two Nationals we won in recent years were in Santa Clara, 45 minutes from Walnut Creek. And even though the meet was so close, many of the 100+ only swam one or two days... but I digress. The "home" teams always have the advantage. 'How much more fair do I want?' I think what is missing in your equation is: that just because we win or do well at meets has nothing to do with numbers of swimmers. I am the first to admit that the Bay Area has some of the finest Masters swimmers in the world, and recent statistics show we have the most in USMS. It is a high caliber swimming area. We have been able to win Nationals or be in the top 3 with 40-50 swimmers when many teams had many more swimmers. We have a lot of fast swimmers and former college and Olympic champions. That is not the issue. The issue remains: we are a club team in every sense of the word. We should not be made to compete against whole regions or states or LMSC's. There should be a different distinction, just like gender and age groups. We don't score men against women (that's not fair) We don't score 85 year olds against 19 year olds. (that's not fair) Why should we score entire regions against club teams (no matter what their size!) That's not fair either. I didn't know that they did away with the divisions at Nationals. If that's the case this would be the perfect time to establish club teams and SUPERTEAMs.

If not for our "superteam" (NCMS), I would not have had the opportunity to swim on a relay in Savannah, which was a lot of fun. Fun--now that's a concept. By the way Fritz, you hurt my feelings. "Couldn't pick half of them out of a lineup"? Maybe I'm in the other half.

Originally posted by gull80 If not for our "superteam" (NCMS), I would not have had the opportunity to swim on a relay in Savannah, which was a lot of fun. Fun--now that's a concept. By the way Fritz, you hurt my feelings. "Couldn't pick half of them out of a lineup"? Maybe I'm in the other half. You are in the other half. Fun?

New rules suggestion: For a swimmer to represent a USMS club in a competitive event, Ninety (90) consecutive days must have elapsed without having the swimmer represented any other USMS club in a USMS competition. The This 90-day rule does not apply to representation in closed competition if it is sanctioned or approved by the LMSC. A swimmer may only change representation once per calendar year. Member Club is an organization of permanent character currently registered with USMS through its LMSC and that actively promote and participate in Masters Swimming. An LMSC cannot in itself be a member club with exception of an national chamionship and its members have written transfered membership with the 90 day rule.

Originally posted by Karen Duggan Thank you cjr, the more information the better, for me, to understand this "thing". I think it's great that LMSC's are trying to build better programs, host more meets, etc. After all, that is the goal of Masters, to promote a healthy lifestyle... However, while I understand the reasoning and need for SUPERTEAMs (and that's dandy :) ), I still think the club team, like mine, should not be made to compete against a whole region, state, etc. It's not fair. If we have divisions by age and gender and size of team why would it be such a stretch to have a club division and a SUPERTEAM division? Or should we do away with the whole team competition then? If individuals from "anywhere" can pick and choose who they swim with, to me it's not really a "team" competition (except if you are on a club where you workout with your teammates at the same pool, etc). Why have "team" awards? Let's just stick with the individual awards. I can't hang the team banner on my wall anyway! :p Short Course Nationals 2003 WCM Women #1 WCM men #2 WCM Combined #1 Long Course Nationals 2003 WCM Women #7 WCM men #12 WCM Combined #14 Short Course Nationals 2004 WCM Women #2 WCM men #3 WCM Combined #2 Long Course Nationals 2004 WCM Women #2 WCM men #2 WCM Combined #1 How much more fair do you want?

So it’s not fair if all 12 registered members on North Dakota band together form a super-club and take on Walnut Creek? In today’s USMS members are allowed to form new clubs and choose which registered club they wish to be affiliated with. We have members living in Oregon swimming with New England. Not so long ago, Delta Airlines had a club made up if Delta employees from around the country and Tiger Holmes formed his Lumber Jax to take on the World in Brisbane, Australia (at least that is when I recall it being formed). As for fairness, I’m not sure if team scoring at meets and relay composition has ever been fair. It just is what it is. Was it fair when I was the only member of my club swimming at a meet, unable to compete for the team title or in relays? Or when, as a member of a super-club, we took 2nd place at the LC nationals (beaten by Fritz’s super-club)? It just is what it is. As for changing rules to address this… as anyone who has been involved in USMS knows, we love to change rules. We do it every year. So if new rules need to be implemented to help the club clubs, someone out there needs to draft them. I’m sure our House of Delegates will have a wonderful time debating the issues.

1) We all work out at Heather Farm Pool in Walnut Creek at any one of five different practice times. (I, myself, make use of many different times with three kids at home, etc...) 2) We all share the same three coaches who are present at any of the said workouts. 3) Most of us travel together to meets (car pool, book the same airline reservations, eat and room together...) 4) We have many team functions (parties, swims, awards, clinics, dinners, etc.) 5) We support each other during practices with good examples and encouraging words. 6) We actively recruit "old" swimming friends to join our team. Most of the people on our team have age-group experience. 7) We have team apparel and caps. 8) For the most part we all get along really well. 9) Most of all we have fun. Because if it's not fun it's not Walnut Creek Masters swimming. 10) When we signed up for Masters we joined Walnut Creek Masters, an individual club team. However, I pondered the whole SUPERTEAM earlier. Maybe WCM should mean West Coast Masters- we can have all of the teams in CA join together. You think it's not fair that Walnut Creek does well at Nationals as a club team, how do you think the state of CA would do? No other state, region or LMSC would ever win another Nationals. As Brenda Blue in Jay Jay the Jet Plane would say, "Something to think about."