Backstroke rule change?

Anyone like to define what "continuous turning action" really means? Seems to me that my turn begins when I start to rotate over my underwater turning arm and ends when my feet hit the wall. As long as I don't stop dead in the water before my feet hit the wall then I'd maintain I had a "continous turning action" regardless of what my arms and legs are doing.

Yes, Karen, it is like the the back to breaststroke that you described, except you come out toward the back rather than toward the ***. I also have many bad memories of hitting my head (but still not as bad as the time I hit my head swimming butterfly!) It seems so much easier to judge the wall than it used to be (not that I don't still make mistakes . . .)

Based on the amount of discussion of this topic, one thing is certain - the rule is very poorly written!

As difficult as it may be to judge the turn with the way the rule is currently written, it was much more difficult previously. I don't know exactly when the change was instituted, but when I was competing in the 1980s we still had to touch the wall with our hand. This is fine when everyone did the old John Nabor "sit and spin" turn. But, then backstrokers started pushing the limits of the rule and trying to rotate partially to their chest, touch the wall with the hand BEFORE passing the vertical towards the ***, and then proceeding to do a freestyle flip turn and push off on the back. The fastest turners were the ones who were closest to breaking the rule every time. Imagine the difficulty for a turn judge to decide in an instant whether the backstroker had passed the critical "vertical towards the ***" before or after touching the wall with his/her hand. The current rule is much better.

Sometimes reading the rules is like reading physics. I think I understand what I'm read, but I really don't know what is said. My mind goes num when I read the rules for the backstroke turn. And trying to interprupt the rules is mind destroying. The continuous turning movement must limit the time you stay on your stomach and what about having both of your hands at your hips while you are on your stomach. That is what I was told Peisol does. It is very easy to see it. And he doesn't appear to be turning at all, only gliding into the wall.

Agree that Peirsol glides longer on his turn than most other swimmers. Even he reportedly admits that turns aren't his strongest suit. But in the end, it's like someone running the 400 meter dash who swerves into an outside lane without interfering with another runner. That runner is not disqualified because he/she has actually given himself/herself farther to run. It that same runner swerves into an inner lane, they ARE disqualified because they've shortened the distance and thus gained an unfair advantage. I believe that the principle in any sport should be that someone is disqualified for putting themselves at an unfair advantage - why DQ someone for placing themselves, whether by error or poor technique, at a DISadvantage? Makes no sense at all, IMHO.

Manticora may be correct with regards to how the rules should be set up -- to avoid unfair advantage. But that is not what this rule states or the way it is interpreted, and until the rule is changed it should be interpreted the way it is written. That is, if a swimmer does not turn in a continuous manner they should be disqualified. I know many important coaches and referees that are trying to get the rule changed. That said, I have never heard the 'not both arms at the side' interpretation that Craig has, either as an experienced backstroke swimmer or as a stroke and turn judge. I did a few turns yesterday, and my arms are always at my side when I flip - if they were not I would be annoyed at myself, because back there, soon to be *up* there, is where I want my hands to be. Furthermore, I like that final push of the hand, by the thigh, to help the flip, and it usually occurs as my head is heading down. Knock on wood, but I have never been disqualified for a backstroke turn. Yes, if the hands are at the side and one is gliding, that is a problem, but the problem is the glide, not the location of the arms or hands. When Piersol did his turn his arms finished at his side, but when that happened his head, and body, had already started his flipping action. Even if it hadn't already started, if the flipping action started immediately after the hands reached the side, it would be OK, marginal, but OK, as long as there was not a *finite* time (infinitesimal does not count) in which a glide was occurring.

I can't remember what other thread I posted this in but I said that I thought Aaron Peirsol was a doll (which has nothing to do with anything!) and I cringed watching him at the Olympics. I remember watching his 1st back turn (it must have been the 200) and I thought, "Uh-oh, he's going to get DQ'd". But then I thought, "Naw, it's the Olympics. He won't get DQ'd. I'm being too critical." It seemed to me he glided into the wall that moment too long. Sure enough he was DQ'd and then it was overturned. Just because you're in the Olympics doesn't mean you can't make a mistake. Look at that Japanese breaststroker for Pete's sake. That was a blatant DQ and for some reason wasn't called (not once but a few times!) Anyway, I'm glad to see such an interesting discussion and interpretation of the rule. I too think it is poorly written.

I'm confused. Don't ask me what about, I am just plan confused. Continuos motion? Is that with the hands or the whole body? I just recently found out I was doing my turn wrong and I have been working on fixing it. Sometimes when I do my turn I find that I am to far from the wall and after I finish my stroke I may glide a little before I start my turn. Does this mean I can be DQ?:confused:

Originally posted by SWinkleblech I'm confused. Don't ask me what about, I am just plan confused. Continuos motion? Is that with the hands or the whole body? The rule never uses the term "continuous motion". It does mention "continuous turning action", but only to say that once the body has left the position on the back, any arm pull or kick must be part of the continuous turning action. Sometimes when I do my turn I find that I am to far from the wall and after I finish my stroke I may glide a little before I start my turn. Does this mean I can be DQ?:confused: The safest thing to do if you're too far away is to kick into the wall on your back. Beyond that, what the rules say are: - If you take an arm pull after rolling onto your ***, there can't be a pause between the completion of the arm pull and the start of your turn, since this would mean that the arm pull was not part of your continuous turning action. - If you take an arm pull after rolling onto your ***, there can't be a pause in the middle of the arm pull, since this would mean that your arm pull was not continuous. - After you roll onto your ***, you can't glide and kick before beginning your continuous turning action (which includes the arm pull if there is no pause between the arm pull and the turn), since this would mean that that kick or those kicks weren't part of your continuous turning action.