Backstroke rule change?

Originally posted by craiglll@yahoo.com I'm under the impression from judges I talked with that if both hands are at your side before you tuck your head to start your change of direction (your flip), you are gliding and will get DQ'ed. Yesterday, I tried to do some turns where I'm bringing my hands together as I'm also tucking my head. It seemed almost impossible. Generally, my hands are at my hips right after I turn. Then I tuck my head & flip. I'm not sure I understand what your problem is. When you are swimming backstroke, you are leading first with one arm and then with the other. So when you arrive at the wall, one of your two arms should be leading. At that point, you want to roll onto your ***, sweep your leading arm under your body, and tuck your head. While you could sweep your arm under your body (essentially taking a stroke of freestyle) and then tuck your head and begin your flip, you would not only be risking getting DQed - it would also make little sense, since you would be wasting the angular momentum of the arm sweep. It makes more sense to synchronize the arm sweep and the head tuck so that the two combine to impart the angular momentum that flips you over. Once your arm reaches your hips, you can then turn both hands palm forward and sweep them up over your head, helping to flip you the rest of the way over, and leaving your arms very close to the position they need to be in to snap into your streamline.

I'm under the impression from judges I talked with that if both hands are at your side before you tuck your head to start your change of direction (your flip), you are gliding and will get DQ'ed. Yesterday, I tried to do some turns where I'm bringing my hands together as I'm also tucking my head. It seemed almost impossible. Generally, my hands are at my hips right after I turn. Then I tuck my head & flip. When I looked at tapes of Aaron Peirsol from the scm in Indy, it looks like he is gliding. His body, hands, nor head are moving. That seems to me to be illegal? I wonder if maybe he is simply to far from the wall? If you are close to the wall when you roll onto your stomach, you have less space & mayube you aren't going to glide.

Originally posted by Rob Copeland 3) The swimmer turns past vertical towards the *** and executes a single or simultaneous double armpull to initiate their turn. Once the arm(s) has (have) stopped moving (and you’re sure it has stopped moving), the swimmer must be doing something to initiate their turn. If they’re not doing something to initiate the turn as soon as their arms stop moving, that’s a DQ. They can kick throughout the turn, as long as it’s part of a continuous turning action. They must touch the wall (usually with their feet) and they must be past vertical towards the back when their feet leave the wall. If they miss the wall, they cannot “scull” back to touch the wall as that reverse motion would constitute a “non-continuous turning action.” According to this wording, if you do end up too far from the wall after you pull through to your waist, it should be perfectly legal to scull the rest of the way in to where you need to flip. It would be hard to argue that sculling does not constitute motion of the arm, so as long as there's no pause between the end of the arm pull to the waist and the beginning of the sculling action the rule is met and you shouldn't be DQed. Anyone find any flaw in my reasoning? Someone call Aaron Peirsol and let him know :) EDIT: just to clarify, this doesn't violate the part about sculling back if you miss the turn. I'm talking about sculling prior to the flip.

Originally posted by LindsayNB Your sculling scheme would violate the continuous turning action. The rule explicitly allows the arm pull but once the pull is over you must start your flip. I disagree. I see nothing in the rule book that says sculling doesn't count as part of the arm pulls. It might violate the "spirit of the rule," but it seems legal to me. I guess the bottom line, though, is most officials would consider it illegal, so you would still get disqualified.

Originally posted by Bob McAdams If you scull between the arm pull and the turn, then the arm pull is not part of the continuous turning action. Only if you consider the sculling to not be part of the arm pull. But I do understand it violates the intent as you stated.

Your sculling scheme would violate the continuous turning action. The rule explicitly allows the arm pull but once the pull is over you must start your flip. I have always thought that the logical rule change to deal with the "did they touch before they got vertical" judgement problem was to allow the touch to occur during a continuous rotation onto the ***. Adding the pull and removing the hand touch did not address the problem. That said, I don't understand the basis of the arguments here, why should turning on your front so early you can't make a legal turn be any different from any of the other mistakes you can make that get you disqualified?

Originally posted by knelson According to this wording, if you do end up too far from the wall after you pull through to your waist, it should be perfectly legal to scull the rest of the way in to where you need to flip. It would be hard to argue that sculling does not constitute motion of the arm, so as long as there's no pause between the end of the arm pull to the waist and the beginning of the sculling action the rule is met and you shouldn't be DQed. Anyone find any flaw in my reasoning? The problem is that what you are quoting is not the rule. What the rule states is that: "Upon completion of each length, some part of the swimmer must touch the wall. During the turn the shoulders may be turned past the vertical toward the ***, after which a continuous single arm pull or a continuous simultaneous double arm pull may be used to execute the turn. Once the body has left the position on the back, any kick or arm pull must be part of the continuous turning action. The swimmer must have returned to a position on the back upon leaving the wall." So the issue is not that the swimmer has to be "doing something to initiate the turn as soon as their arms stop moving". It is that "any kick or arm pull must be part of the continuous turning action." If you scull between the arm pull and the turn, then the arm pull is not part of the continuous turning action. Note that the intent of the rule is that the arm pull done on the *** (if there is one) is being "used to execute the turn." The test for this is whether the turn has begun by the end of the arm pull.

I mentioned the "continuous turning motion" because that is exactly what I was told by the official who DQ'd me in the 200 back at Nationals in 199something. I just missed getting first and did my life best by 7 seconds. I was stoked. I got out and the official (my friend now, but certainly not then, Michael Moore) told me that I glided into my first turn only. I asked him several times for an exact clarification and he couldn't give it to me. I thought that was the most absurd thing! My first turn, when I have all the speed and momentum from the start, and being fresh at the beginning of the race... I have never forgotten it to this day. I do take consolation in that Michael also DQ's my husband, who won the 400 IM, by an entire pool length in the same meet. When my husband asked why, Michael told him that on his breaststroke turn one hand was lower than the other on the turn. My husband kept pressing it because (even the video showed it was legal) and Michael's exact words were, "About an inch." Interestingly enough that *** turn rule was changed the next year. Somebody please change the backstoke rule before a murder is committed at Nationals :p

Originally posted by Karen Duggan I mentioned the "continuous turning motion" because that is exactly what I was told by the official who DQ'd me in the 200 back at Nationals in 199something. I just missed getting first and did my life best by 7 seconds. I was stoked. I got out and the official (my friend now, but certainly not then, Michael Moore) told me that I glided into my first turn only. I asked him several times for an exact clarification and he couldn't give it to me. He should have said "continuous turning action" instead of "continuous turning motion", but I don't think the distinction is all that important. The important thing is that he needed to say more than that. What exactly did you do wrong? Did you do an arm pull that wasn't continuous? Did you do an arm pull that wasn't part of your continuous turning action? Did you do a kick that wasn't part of your continuous turning action? It's worth remembering that you have the right, under rule 102.16.4, to issue a protest concerning interpretation of the rules provided you do it in writing within 10 days to the USMS Rules Committee chair. And if you do, it is likely to come down to something similar to the Aaron Piersol situation at the Olympics: The USMS Rules Committee chair is obviously not going to question whether the referee saw what he claimed to have seen, but he is going examine whether the basis for the DQ, as described by the referee, was valid according to the rules. What happened in Piersol's case was that what the referee had written didn't justify the DQ under the rules.

Originally posted by Bob McAdams What happened in Piersol's case was that what the referee had written didn't justify the DQ under the rules. Actually, what the referee wrote wasn't in the "working language" of FINA--English or French.