back->***

I don't have a rule book handy at the moment but the rule states something along the lines of 'your body can't pass the vertical during the back to *** turn'. Think of your body laying flat on your back in the water. If you drew a line from the bottom of the pool to the sky that went straight through your body, this would represent the vertical line. Basically, neither one of your shoulders can pass this vertical line before you touch the wall. If you want to think of it mathematically, your shoulders can't go farther than 90 degrees from where they are if you are flat on your back. Once you touch the wall with your hand, you may flip backwards, frontwards, sideways - basically anyway you want. The only catch is that when you push off the wall for breastroke, you must not be past vertical on your stomach. Basically it's the same rule as coming into the wall on backstroke except for being on your stomach. Not something you will see too often in the 400 IM. In high school I was taught how to do the cross-over turn. Coming in on backstroke you touch the wall while almost on your side, flip your legs over the top to the wall, and push off again almost on your side. It's a tough turn to do legally, not to mention the risk of oxygen debt because you don't get a breath on the wall. As you may be able to tell by my user name, I don't care to much for IM. If I had to race IM today, I would probably just use the old fashioned spin turn.

Originally posted by Freestyler I don't have a rule book handy at the moment but the rule states something along the lines of 'your body can't pass the vertical during the back to *** turn'. It's always dangerous to talk about the rules when you don't have a rule book handy (particularly if you're a Freestyler talking about IM). ;) What the rules say is: "The swimmer must touch the wall while on the back. Once a legal touch has been made, the swimmer may turn in any manner, but the shoulders must be at or past the vertical toward the *** when the swimmer leaves the wall and the prescribed breaststroke form must be attained prior to the first arm stroke."

I still dont' udnerstand the techinqiue on flipping over sideways..is there an underwateer video?

If you reach back with one hand then bring your legs up to the wall doing a back/*** flip turn itis much faster that an open turn. If you look at M. Phelps doing his turns they are incredible. He does a very hard roll because he end up on the opposite side from where most end up. You need really strong abdoms. But if you bring your feet up, to touch the wall right at your hands, then roll onto that side,it is a lot of fun and fast enough.

I don't know but for some reason swim.ee takes for ever for me to download. It is a really good site, though. Lindsay, you seem to have a lot of the answers. Also, the films at Western Australia are really good. they are suppose to put the 2004 Olympics on soon. The film of Brian Jones doing the turn is excellent. When I do the back/*** flip I don't arch as much as Jones. Also, I bring my legs up right to my hand and roll onto the left side, if right hasnd touches then I roll to the left. I have noticed that people do it both ways. doing it so that I end up on the right side is very difficult and really works my stomach. I don't roll onto the opposite side I touch with. Is this wrong? I sort of do a very old modified version of the touch back flip. I noticed Michael Phelps does. I think though that both are legal. It is very difficult but quicker than an open turn. It is also very impressive. I swim in a pool where only about 10% of the people do a flip turn. Most not very well. Most of the peole who swim in the pool are lifers.