The Fastest Age

Originally posted by Conniekat8 ... You seem to lump the VO2Max together with muscle development and physiology,and that is mediacally incorrect. ... This is the key: muscle development includes development of capillaries, myoglobin, and mytochondria in order to allow a higher percentage of VO2Max to get oxygen in the muscles. Muscle development includes development of the receptors of the VO2Max.

Originally posted by aquageek ... It's obvious you are so desperate for our adoration that nothing will stop you from creating excuses. ... It's obvius that you don't speak your native language. Nevermind swim.

Cynthia - good memory and correct I did swim in the Cal Novice league for a couple years. Since this thread is going so good, why waste it with a brand new thread, (We may all ready have a captivated audience so why reinvent the wheel), with a question loosely linked to this. As you age and your body changes do you think your weak swim events maybe become your stronger and vice versa. From my own experience in early on I was an okay backstroker and distance freestyler, not a good sprinter and horrible breastroker. My first year in college a somewhat mediocre distance swimmer, a mediocre breastroker and a terrible backstroker (my *** was as fast as my back). Second year of college after 1 season of water polo, still a mediocre distance swimmer and IM er, but a better sprinter, still a better breastroker than backstroker. Now years later in masters still an okay sprinter my backstroke has improved greatly from college and breastroke has remained about the same (please note my swim ability is just my opinion, rather than grading on a scale of 1 to 10 or whatever). Thoughts?

Originally posted by gull80 Wait a minute--when we talk about muscle physiology, like myoglobin, mitochondria and capillaries, we're talking about VO2max. That's what muscles do--they consume oxygen. And how can swimming not depend on VO2max? Maglischo seems to think it does. As for former age groupers, if they've retained all of those adaptations to training (while not training for fifteen or twenty years!), why can't they just jump in the pool and effortlessly repeat the times of their youth? Why are breaks in training so problematic even for younger swimmers? So we're supposed to believe that it's not technique, but rather muscle physiology (but not VO2max) that benefits the former age grouper when he or she returns to swimming years later. Makes a lot of sense to me. I'm not sure I'm following you on that one? Are you saying muscle Physiology is the benefit over the technique, or the other way around? Also, how does one rationalize away the muscle atrophy that has happened in many years of not training? As for the guesswork of VO2Max... here's a good and reputable article on it: www.nismat.org/.../max_o2.html I'd like to point out that there's not a word there about Vo2Max window of development being in someone's youth. However, they do point out that VO2max does get affected by the aging process, and it is genetically predetermined. Muscle physiology is changeable throughout one's lifetime. The only known limiting factors (as I gater) are genetics and aging - in a normal healthy individual. They also say that with a proper training regiment, a person is able to reach their genetically predetermined VO2Maxpotential (minus the aging factor). So, by that logic, an out of shape former age group swimmer would probably take just as long to train back to his genetically predetermined VO2max, as any other out of shape individual (provided they're investing the same level of physical effort). If Ion thinks that VO2Max is what's holdong him back, I've come to believe that the reason gfor it i most likely genetic, and due to his age. I still don't believe that early years of swimming would help with his current VO2max. I do believe that early years of swimming may have helped him with other factors, physical and mental. In conclusion, there's no way to tell whether Ion would have been an elite swimmer had he started as an age grouper, thereare too many other factors in playto know. I do not believe that VO2Max is what is holding Ion back from reaching his theoretical potential in swimming. I'd still venture an educated guess (or postulate a theory) that If Ion is being held back by anything, it is most likely his swimming technique and the psychological aspect. Also, couple observations that Paul Smith made, that stuck in mymind is thatIon has Asthma, and that his nutrition is not the best. Those two elements will affect anyone's VO2MAx, but are independent of the age group swimming, and have nothing to do with Ion being a late bloomer, and have a lot to do with his health, age and lifestyle (nutritional and psychological aspect of it).

Originally posted by Ion Beza This is the key: muscle development includes development of capillaries, myoglobin, and mytochondria in order to allow a higher percentage of VO2Max to get oxygen in the muscles. Muscle development includes development of the receptors of the VO2Max. yeah, but it's not limited by the development in the 13-19 age group, it's limited by genetics aging and health. So, being a late bloomer has no bearing on your VO2max development. Your argument is drifing from your original statements that lack of vo2max development as the age groupler is holdong you back today. Read my lastpost, before this one. I've elaborated on what I believe is holding you back from whatever your full potential might be.

To digress a bit if I may, the Baltimore Sun has been running a series of articles on our Michael Phelps. On March 8, 2004, the paper ran an article The Measure of a Swimmer. You can access it by clicking here. It's a fascinating story, IMHO, and I thought that I would share it with my friends in the USMS Forum. Unfortunately, the underwater pictures, which were in color, are not included in the article. They were especially great. It was good to see Doc Counsilman mentioned in the article, too. I submit this article only for your reading interest and not for debate. Kindest regards, Mark

Connie, maybe the scuba diving you did when you were younger is helping now because you have a comfort in the water. Being able to relax in the water is a big part of being able to do some of these things. I think that is very likely. Perhaps, I'm not a true later bloomer ;) I am volunteering at the Y this week teaching their little Splash week introduction to water safety. One of the hardest things to get youngsters to do is relax. Try floating when every muscle in your body is tense. It doesn't work. I have to tell them I want their arms and legs floppy. Some tense up, some just keep thrashing. Then others just get in, feel at ease and do it. When I speak to the parents, I find these are the kids that the parent has gotten in the water with and played with, so the kid equates water as fun and is relaxed. Yeap! I've always been very relaxed in water. I feel better in water than I do on land. So translate that to me trying to learn backstroke turns, which I only succesfully did in the last 6 months. Coach tells us we are going to work on backstroke turns. Having watched tons of age group practices I know the first step is to know your count, then learn the timing of when to turn over, stroke and flip. I know all these things, but my head is saying, yeah, but after I flip I am going to be on my back, under water and have used up all my air on the flip. So right away before I even start to execute the turn, I am uptight, using more air than I need, and subsequently have a near drowning on the turn! Time has started to erase these problems and I can now streamline at least halfway across the pool on my back underwater. But it is because I am so stubborn and refused to give in. And I now know I won't drown in 4 foot of water! I tend to halt my breathing (exhaling) for just a little bit during the part of the turn where I know the water is not gonna get up my nose, then i have little more left to exhale when I'm on my back. Also, I try to ration my exhaling. At the begining of the turn my exhalation is much more shallow, then it gets more forceful when I'm on my back. It takes practice, and ignoring the little bit if water that does get up your nose on occasion. Yea, long time ago I learned to not panic from that out of breath feeling. it;s still uncomfortable, bytm hey,if thats the worst thing, I can deal. I seem to have a knack for streamlines. few times I've challenged some of my 6'4" experienced male teammates to a glide contest, and theyre' amazed when I at least tie them, if not beat them. Yeah, I think diving helped. When I was a 13-14 yar old kid, I was able to breath dive overa minute. I never paid a lot of attention to my speed, but i did to the length of time under water. When you are taught to relax in the water as a child, then these things don't plague you as much as an adult. I wholeheartedly agree!!! As I kid, I never remember the time I wasn't in water. I did have a burning desire to be on a swim team even then, but my parents weren't, lets say, very involved parents, being on the team would have taken their involvement, so it was a no-go. I did get to the olympic trials level in another sport though... (not a very physical sport) but nonetheless, training hard and consitently, and listening to your coaches and those in the know comes naturally. And yea, I have the mental toughness it takes. For me personally, it' the physical that is an unknown.

As you age and your body changes do you think your weak swim events maybe become your stronger and vice versa. I will totally disagree with this statement. In high school I was a long distance swimmer and a backstroker. To this day I can not sprint and I am not a breaststroker. As for this VO2Max factor, I would say between running, playing soccer, and two years on my high school swimteam (marching band, too if you want to count that.) I would think that I would of built that up. Yet as a swimmer today I am far from being fast. I attribute that to poor technique, poor conditioning, being overweight, and having children who changed my whole body shape. Because I was only on the swim team for two school years it really did not build my technique. Since we have such a small masters team we have no coach. So I continue to swim with out anyone to help me with my technique. This I beleive is a major factor in my not being a faster swimmer. If VO2Max was a major factor in swimming fast then these other factors shouldn't slow me down much, but they do. So for me to swim faster I know I need to concentrate on working on the factors I stated above and not worry about this VO2Max thing.

Connie, I was trying to make the point that your MD friend, if quoted correctly, wasn't making sense. First, I don't see how you can separate muscle physiology (mitochondria, myoglobin, etc.) from VO2max, giving credit to one but not the other. Second, I disagree (as would Maglischo and others) that swimming does not depend on VO2max, at least in distances of 200 or above. Third, he discounts technique, without which VO2max is useless, and swimming becomes the indiscriminate and inefficient application of force. Fourth, I do not believe that physiological adaptations to exercise remain 15 or 20 years later without training. We all know what happens when training is interrupted; Maglischo cites numerous studies showing loss of these adaptations when training stops. Do they lie dormant for decades, as Ion suggests, only to be "reawakened" years later? I doubt it. Technique is not a substitute for developing VO2max, but it's certainly not a New Age "let's feel good about ourselves" USMS concept as Ion seems to suggest. Former age groupers have an advantage over late starters, particularly if they've stayed in reasonable shape and are still healthy. But no, I don't believe that it's due to some dormant aspect of muscle physiology.

Originally posted by gull80 Connie, I was trying to make the point that your MD friend, if quoted correctly, wasn't making sense. First, I don't see how you can separate muscle physiology (mitochondria, myoglobin, etc.) from VO2max, giving credit to one but not the other. Second, I disagree (as would Maglischo and others) that swimming does not depend on VO2max, at least in distances of 200 or above. Third, he discounts technique, without which VO2max is useless, and swimming becomes the indiscriminate and inefficient application of force. Fourth, I do not believe that physiological adaptations to exercise remain 15 or 20 years later without training. We all know what happens when training is interrupted; Maglischo cites numerous studies showing loss of these adaptations when training stops. Do they lie dormant for decades, as Ion suggests, only to be "reawakened" years later? I doubt it. Technique is not a substitute for developing VO2max, but it's certainly not a New Age "let's feel good about ourselves" USMS concept as Ion seems to suggest. Former age groupers have an advantage over late starters, particularly if they've stayed in reasonable shape and are still healthy. But no, I don't believe that it's due to some dormant aspect of mucle physiology. Okay, I got it. I agree with you on most points. As for the technique, my MD friends didn't discount it, we just haven't talked about it, since we previously agreed that it IS a major factor. The discussion was under the assumption that the technique had been fine tuned. I'm sorry for not claryfying this earlier. Yes, I agree wouth you in not exactly believing that the physical adaptations remain for 15-20 yeas!!! Muscle memory, motor skills and the training of the nervous system may remain in the background. You know, 'just like riding a bike'. Anmd yes, I do believe that most age groupers and accomplished swimmers have put forth a lot more effort towards staying in shape than some of us other mortals did :) Thank for explaining it. I hope I didn't sound like I was challenging you, I really just didn't follow what you meant the first time around, my bad.