The Fastest Age

I sent a message to an MD friend of mine, who is also an avid and accomplished swimmer. You guys might be interested in reading his quick professional opinion. >>There's a guy in another group that's been making a lot of arguments about VO2Max and how his swimming is bad because he never swam as a kid, and therefore the blood vessels that deliver the flow into his triceps are underdeveloped as compared to an elite swimmer that had been swimming as a kid.<"The Three Riddles of Swimming," one of which was why people who take up the sport as kids seem to have a lifelong advantage over those who take it up as adults. A related "riddle" was why swimmers needed to train such insanely long distances to swim such short races. I agree with your friend that part of his problem is the undercapillarization of his triceps, lats, etc., relative to swimmers like Andy Miller-Bray, who at age 45 made the USA swimming national open water team which competed at world championships in Barcelona last summer. In the mid-70s, when Andy was a teenager, he was swimming probably a hundred thousand meters a week at Mission Viejo, building up a rich capillary bed around muscle fibers which were previously "white" and relatively avascular. Over the years, I've seen lots of old guys who were former youth swimmers get into the water after a long layoff. First couple of days, they're not so tough. After a month, they are kicking some serious butt. I think it's much more related to muscle physiology than to technique. I don't think that VO2 max enters into it all that much. There isn't a very close relationship at all between VO2 max and performance in swimming (unlike running and cycling and x-c skiing, where there is a significant relationship). It's more related to the "redness" of the swimming muscles...how many capillaries, how many mitochondria, how much myoglobin (all things which make red muscle red). Have you ever noticed how you push off the wall for the first of your warm-up laps and you feel so strong and effortless for the first 50 or so, and then it becomes more of a chore? I do. It's because of the accumulation of lactate, because of the relatively poor ability of my undervascularized and overly white swimming muscles to burn it up and/or transport it away. This fall off in "ease" after the first 50 doesn't happen in high level swimmers, because they produce less lactate, burn it up faster, and carry it away more efficiently. All because of their capillaries, mitochondria, and myoglobin. It's the duck wing/turkey wing thing that I talk about so often.

Originally posted by mattson No you didn't. Mentioning that there was a study, is not the same as listing the title, authors, journal, and publication date. (I would just settle for title and authors, at this point.) ... I did, I did... Re-starting again is going to trigger another 30 pages of the same arguments. The last post by Craig -the doctor and swimmer who expertly followed up the arguments- and the last two by Msparks sum up the stalemate. After all, the VO2Max explanation is my theory only. To catch up here, just re-read my and Craig's posts.

The entire post that gives the quote below is worthy, and I highlight this: Originally posted by Conniekat8 I sent a message to an MD friend of mine, who is also an avid and accomplished swimmer. You guys might be interested in reading his quick professional opinion. ... I agree with your friend that part of his problem is the undercapillarization of his triceps, lats, etc., relative to swimmers like Andy Miller-Bray, who at age 45 made the USA swimming national open water team which competed at world championships in Barcelona last summer. In the mid-70s, when Andy was a teenager, he was swimming probably a hundred thousand meters a week at Mission Viejo, building up a rich capillary bed around muscle fibers which were previously "white" and relatively avascular. ... I think it's much more related to muscle physiology than to technique. ... So a medical doctor thinks like my intuition is: "...problem is the undercapillarization of his triceps, lats, etc..." and "...building up a rich capillary bed around muscle fibers which were previously "white" and relatively avascular..." and "...it's much more related to muscle physiology than to technique..." That's what I say when I emphasize conditioning: "...it's much more related to muscle physiology than to technique..." Regarding Andy Bray, one has to note that he swam in the 'animal lane' with 1500 free gold medal winner of the 1976 Olympics, Brian Gooddell, under the distance coach Mark Schubert at Mission Viejo. Distance coach Mark Schubert also produced the 1500 free gold medal winner of the 1984 Olympics, Mike O'Brien. Now, Mark Schubert is at USC, and Mission Viejo is under Bill Rose -who produced the tough Mike Bruner, winner of the 200 fly in the 1976 Olympics, and who is producing for the 2004 U.S. Olympic Trials Chad Carvin, Larsen Jensen and Justin Mortimer-. Distance coach Mark Schubert also produced the 100 and 200 backstroke winner of the 2000 Olympics, Lenny Krayzelburg, and in 2000 he produced the first sub 15:00 per 1500 meter free in U.S. (14:59), in Erik Vendt.

Thank you, gull80, and, yes, you may call me Swamp Thing. Here in the Piedmont, where swamps are quite prevalent, the real challenge is avoiding all the crocs. As to this whole 1000 thing. I'm contemplating swimming it in practice one day. I have no desire to train for the 1000 in a meet since that will substantially alter how I train and the events I train for. I may give it a shot in the next few weeks, depending on how much I desire vomiting early in the morning. I can admit a secret. If I can beat Ion's 12:25 in a practice, without taper or shave, in the middle of a training cycle, I can assure you that you will hear about it. Well, maybe I will shave since that annoys my wife A WHOLE LOT. Heck, if I beat it easily, I may swim it again in a clown suit with attached balloon characters to further rub it in. As an aside, what's you opinion on ex smokers and swimming? I may have another little secret.

Originally posted by aquageek ... I don't think that VO2 max enters into it all that much. There isn't a very close relationship at all between VO2 max and performance in swimming (unlike running and cycling and x-c skiing, where there is a significant relationship). It's more related to the "redness" of the swimming muscles...how many capillaries, how many mitochondria, how much myoglobin (all things which make red muscle red). ... Speak to geek in his native language and he doesn't get it. The doctor refers to the VO2Max as a whole, constant and genetic to each one and traditionally measurable as a direct correlation in runners. The capillaries that he is mentioning that develop best in young swimmers is what I -in my first post of this thread nonetheless, geek!- and Craig emphasized enough here -even for geek's abilities- as being the percentage of the VO2Max that one gets when swimming, percentage that fuels oxygen in one's swimming muscles: Originally posted by Conniekat8 ... I agree with your friend that part of his problem is the undercapillarization of his triceps, lats, etc., relative to swimmers like... ... building up a rich capillary bed around muscle fibers which were previously "white" and relatively avascular. ...

Wait a minute--when we talk about muscle physiology, like myoglobin, mitochondria and capillaries, we're talking about VO2max. That's what muscles do--they consume oxygen. And how can swimming not depend on VO2max? Maglischo seems to think it does. As for former age groupers, if they've retained all of those adaptations to training (while not training for fifteen or twenty years!), why can't they just jump in the pool and effortlessly repeat the times of their youth? Why are breaks in training so problematic even for younger swimmers? So we're supposed to believe that it's not technique, but rather muscle physiology (but not VO2max) that benefits the former age grouper when he or she returns to swimming years later. Makes a lot of sense to me.

Originally posted by Ion Beza The entire post that gives the quote below is worthy, and I highlight this: So a medical doctor thinks like my intuition is: "...problem is the undercapillarization of his triceps, lats, etc..." and "...building up a rich capillary bed around muscle fibers which were previously "white" and relatively avascular..." and "...it's much more related to muscle physiology than to technique..." That's what I say when I emphasize conditioning: "...it's much more related to muscle physiology than to technique..." Regarding Andy Bray, one has to note that he swam in the 'animal lane' with 1500 free gold medal winner of the 1976 Olympics, Brian Gooddell, under the distance coach Mark Schubert at Mission Viejo. Distance coach Mark Schubert also produced the 1500 free gold medal winner of the 1984 Olympics, Mike O'Brien. Now, Mark Schubert is at USC, and Mission Viejo is under Bill Rose -who produced the tough Mike Bruner, winner of the 200 fly in the 1976 Olympics, and who is producing for the 2004 U.S. Olympic Trials Chad Carvin, Larsen Jensen and Justin Mortimer-. Distance coach Mark Schubert also produced the 100 and 200 backstroke winner of the 2000 Olympics, Lenny Krayzelburg, and in 2000 he produced the first sub 15:00 per 1500 meter free in U.S. (14:59), in Erik Vendt. Well Ion, I swim with Brian Godell almost every morning and just helped him with the sectional meet few weeks ago, I also get to chat with Chad and Justin and Larsen and Dawn almost whenever I want to, as we share most of our morning workouts with our national team. My own coaches two kids swim on the Junior national team. I'm a lot mopre familiar with it all then you are, and have daily access to the first hand information... In case you haven't noticed, I'm a MV Nadador. Anyway, you missed the point of that post... Muscle physiology is differenmt from the VO2Max that you keep tralking about. This is precisely where I disagree with you. You seem to lump the VO2Max together with muscle development and physiology,and that is mediacally incorrect. Maybe that's why you are misunderstood, you lump the two together, and your arguments end up making no sense. I never opposed the fact taht muscle physiology plays an important role. Other than a medical fact, that;s jsutplain common sense. As you read (because you claim to pay attenmtion) this same doctor said that VO2Max doesn't enter the equation with any significance. This defeats your VO2max arguments, and VO2MAx holding you back. You must have noticed that, since you didn't comment on it at all, but instead yet again bent your argument, and latched on a tidbit that may support your claims, and ignored the portion that disproves your theory. Unlike your belief, us lowly USMS parrots and believers do pay attention. This same doctor also said in this article (paraphrasing) taht VO2Max plays more important role in cycling or running etc... and with you being a former soccer player, you have had a lot of chance to develop an above average VO2Max. There is an additional series of questions that I asked my MD friens, about the muscle physiology, and to what extent it can be changed in adulthood. I hope to hear from him sometime this afternoon/evening, so stay tuned. I also invited him to sheck out this thread, if he has time. I'm not sure if he will have time. If he comes by, try to not butt heads with him, as you may be able to learn a lot from him, and ultimatley your performance may benefit. See, if muscle physiology couldn't be changed in adulthood, then it would be near impossible for many people to beciome body-builders past 19, and that is just not the case, most body builders peak past their teens or 20's. I'll try to tape your swims at the nationals, so we have some first hand evidence of your technique. Do you use video analysis in your training? You might be interested in coming to some of our clinics, have yourself taped above and under water. We're soon going to have the 'dart swim' equipement where you can see yourself and your technique compared, and have video side by side or superimposed with the top swimmers, like Popov. Rather than arguing abstracts with you, I'm inviting you to come by and do some practical evaluations with us.

Originally posted by gull80 ... As for former age groupers, if they've retained all of those adaptations to training (while not training for fifteen or twenty years!), why can't they just jump in the pool and effortlessly repeat the times of their youth? ... They do. After re-training. Is like a highway network that is unmaintained. Once cleaned up, the highway network rolls again, maybe not as fast and developed as before getting out of shape -something was forever lost when getting out of shape-, but still impressive. When in New York in 1999, I swam with Steve Fischer -a teammate in Florida of Salnikov in the 80s-. From out of shape, he started to crank up fast, long distances. The capillaries were there, just not oiled lately.

I hope everyone will be relieved to learn that a new word "VO2 max" was entered into the Oxford Dictionary of English in 2003. Here is the definition: VO2 max --noun-- the maxium or optimum rate at which the heart, lungs, and muscles can effectively use oxygen during exercise, used as a way of measuring a person's individual aerobic capacity. --origin from volume, O2 (the chemical formula for oxygen) and maxium. this also: freestyle --verb (no obj)--dance, perform, or compete is an improvised or unrestricted fashion. "He just came in and freestyled over the music."

Connie, maybe the scuba diving you did when you were younger is helping now because you have a comfort in the water. Being able to relax in the water is a big part of being able to do some of these things. I am volunteering at the Y this week teaching their little Splash week introduction to water safety. One of the hardest things to get youngsters to do is relax. Try floating when every muscle in your body is tense. It doesn't work. I have to tell them I want their arms and legs floppy. Some tense up, some just keep thrashing. Then others just get in, feel at ease and do it. When I speak to the parents, I find these are the kids that the parent has gotten in the water with and played with, so the kid equates water as fun and is relaxed. So translate that to me trying to learn backstroke turns, which I only succesfully did in the last 6 months. Coach tells us we are going to work on backstroke turns. Having watched tons of age group practices I know the first step is to know your count, then learn the timing of when to turn over, stroke and flip. I know all these things, but my head is saying, yeah, but after I flip I am going to be on my back, under water and have used up all my air on the flip. So right away before I even start to execute the turn, I am uptight, using more air than I need, and subsequently have a near drowning on the turn! Time has started to erase these problems and I can now streamline at least halfway across the pool on my back underwater. But it is because I am so stubborn and refused to give in. And I now know I won't drown in 4 foot of water! When you are taught to relax in the water as a child, then these things don't plague you as much as an adult.