The Fastest Age

Good: Originally posted by Phil Arcuni Ion, About Popov's rotary style, didn't you say that he (or someone like him) had arms 90 degrees out of phase, and isn't that the classic picture of front-quadrant swimming (one arm outstretched, the other recovering by the head?) You understand that many beginning swimmers think the arms should always be 180 degrees apart, and that these are the swimmers TI is trying to address. Now we are talking at my level. The rotary style becomes such at at least 90 degrees. TI doesn't address this, TI says to bring both arms in front (0 degrees) before one starts to pull. The border between the two styles must be somewhere, and arbitrarily is set at 90. In that issue of Swim Technique that I mention, the pictures allegedly representing Thorpe and Hackett battling in 2001 in Japan and Popov all the time, their arms are at least 120 degrees apart all the time -even at 180 degrees apart, oftentimes-.

Originally posted by Ion Beza Good: "Now we are talking at my level. The rotary style becomes such at at least 90 degrees. TI doesn't address this, TI says to bring both arms in front (0 degrees) before one starts to pull. The border between the two styles must be somewhere, and arbitrarily is set at 90." Who set the border arbitrarily at 90??? How do you expect people to follow you with such arbitrary definitions?:confused:

Originally posted by aquageek ... So, if you aren't in the top 10, which ranking system are you referencing? Get your story straight! geek, if you aren't in the top 10 you still can talk to the swimmers who are in the top 10. As for "...Get your story straight!" aren't you picking at straws with such a brilliant thinking as "...So, if you aren't in the top 10, which ranking system are you referencing?..."? I think you are, and like in this example you never won one argument with me in three years. How about you saying that I 'finally' recognized that the VO2Max is my theory only, when in fact I started from the onset to say that it is my theory only? old dog and Msparks did see that I said that it is my theory only. How about the late starter who is faster than me but whose privacy you 'protect'? Bogus, huh?

Originally posted by old dog ... Who set the border arbitrarily at 90??? How do you expect people to follow you with such arbitrary definitions?:confused: Not me. People who defined the rotary and the ovelapping style they set the border. Read that article. Then talk afterwards. At the level where I am after I read it. You follow arbitrary definitions in life all the time anyway. Like 55 is the legal speed and more than 55 is illegal. Ask who set the speed limit at 55, because you cannot "...follow with such arbitrary definitions...".

Originally posted by lefty Connie, I really am having trouble with this: Do you not think that it is a disadvantage to start swimming late in life? That is just stupid. If your problem is with Ion personally, then why attack his theory and ideas? Are you unable to seperate the two? I don't know if it is a disadvantage ort not. Depends on what a person is trying to achieve, and which way you're looking at it. I mentioned before, I think that the lifestyle is much more of a disadvantage that age, up to a certain age, which I think happens somewhere in person's 50's or so. Some of the terms you guys are talking about cover such a broad range of factors, it's difficult to make absolute statementa about them, much like this 'starting late in life disadvantage.' Disadvantage as opposed to what? and trying to accomplish what? There has to be a goal in mind before you can define advantages. -If a person starts to do any sport at 40, and expext to make the olympics, than we're not talking disadvantage, we're talking unrealistic. -If a person says it's the lack of VO2MAx development in his youth that is limiting his potential that is realistic for a 44 year old, well, I don't believe there is a way to know. I have serious doubts that this is the only component that is holdiong Ion back. According to ion, I'm not even sure whether he complains he's being back by VO2Max development or not, one minute he says that it's hinderance, then he claims that he is an exception. Sop, it't the contradictions in his statements that raise my eyebrow. -As for his personality, I've already did what I think of it. To answer your question, I can separate his theories from his abrasive approach (I do that every day wioth engineers I work wioth - many Ions in my fiels), and frankly, I'm not very impressed with either. I think if he worked on his personality, he'd be able to develop his swimming and his ideas farther. I can't say that I can predict the path those ideas would take if he managed to bridge the poersonality issues. He may learn something new, or he may calm down enough to present hios own ideas with fewer contradicting tangents, and more evidence with fewer assupmtions.

Originally posted by gull80 Through training you can increase your VO2max up to a limit that is probably hereditary. As pointed out earlier, VO2max is not the only determinant of athletic performance, but it does correlate. If you start late, have you forever lost the chance to reach your highest possible VO2max? If you start at a young age, then leave the sport for fifteen or twenty years, can you readily regain the VO2max (and/or other training adaptations) that you had when you were younger? Or is it the technique that stays with you? Does anyone still care? yea, all very good quetions. I don't know the answers. It might be interesting to see them answered ... scientifically.

OOOOOH! taken to task by the Mighty Ion (Just curious, is that pronounced "ee-yon" or "eye-yon"?) Originally posted by Ion Beza The overlapping style that Popov is alegedly didn't use yer spell check there, did ya? using is a hard core stereotype in USMS only, not in US Swimming where the age-group swimmers are. I recommend anyone to do their homework before posting at my level. ... At your level? Are you referring to all your years of coaching of swimmers at all levels? You have an uncomplete understanding of TI and many things swimming. TI advocates staying in the front quadrant for as long as possible, but the caveat is that stroke length will vary by event length, which is exactly what was stressed at the stroke school (where age group coaches go). The shorter the event, the higher the stroke rate, but the foundation of the stroke is the most streamlined sustainable body position at different speeds. Longer events, longer stroke length. At your level? You look at Popov swimming and see where his arms are. I look and see his overall body and head position, his stroke length, the amplitude of his kick, the water around him and a dozen other things you simply lack the experience or knowledge to know to look for. I also look to see how he practices and what he takes from that to the race and in general what principles Touretski uses to guide his training . Forest for the trees. You're too mired in details to what is happening overall. You look empirically at effect, I look analyatically at effect and cause. I recently volunteered at the FINA World Cup meet in New York and noticed something that reaffirmed, for me, everything I'm stating here. Nearly every swimmer I observed in the warm-up pool began and finished with TI-like drills, maintaining long, slow front quadrant strokes. I even have film of it. Long, streamlined body positions, held as long as possible. Some of the fastest swimmers in the world, in all distances. Stroke length. You know, TI Stuff. I'd suggest that you do your own homework, ion, but you're not even enrolled in the class.

Having done my Masters PRs in the 500 and 1650 at age 50, having restarted serious swimming at age 37,and not having swum as an age grouper, Ion, I offer the following: I used to get EXTREMELY arm and leg weary in all races, but esp the long ones. Following TI- and Boomer-like coaching for years , and doing catch-up drills, zoomers, and Tyr paddles, I finally think I got it, as evidenced by my PR's... When I finished my PR-races in the above events, my arms and legs were not weary. But every muscle between my deltoids and glutes ached with the effort for two days...I left little in the pool. This is why I do not buy the theory you are selling re: the blood supplVO2max to the triceps. Transfer of core power to the water thru more efficient technique is what I believe made me a faster swimmer, not just more yardage/meat & potatoes. PLUS my turns beat my competitors too, big time.

Well, lets put it this way. Less women in the 45-49 age group can go under 3:00 in the 200 meter fly. Its easier for the age groups thru 44 to do this. So, age is a factor as well as the fact that masters women don't put in the yardage that would enable them to go under 3:00 in the 200 meter fly which is an event that depends heavily on the VO2 factor. Also, this event is one where Ion theory holds true because in order to get a A or BB time in 15-18 age group in USA swimming you have to be doing a 2:50 or better time in the 200 meter fly. This would have placed you in number 2 postion last year in the US in 45-49 old women in the us but its very common for 15-18 year old girls to swim 2:50 or better in the 200 meter fly. Also, 200 meter fly is an event in Masters where no one has claim a personal best over a children time. Even Laurie Val best time as an adult I believe is 2:32 and she did around a 2:27 or 2:26 in her late teens.

As for the anchor description, if you had left it as a term you had not heard before (and the literal interpretation made no sense to you), you probably would have had people lined up to clarify the isssue. But you had to start mocking people using the term... In Colwin's book, he points out that coaches must be able to describe both how the stroke looks and feels to the swimmer. (The "poetic" terms that Ion derides are usually when trying to tell the novice swimmer what the sensation should be. If Ion can come up with better terms, I think we would all be happy to hear it.) So Colwin writes: A once popular and comparitively apt description of the feel of the water likened it to the feeling of pulling through soft mud. More recently, however, a "fixed point of resistance" description has become popular. ... To convey the concept of a force acting on a mass of water, the act of propulsion has been variously described as feeling for undisturbed water, anchoring the hand on a fixed spot in the water and pulling the body past it, pulling along an imaginary knotted rope, and other similar descriptions.