Originally posted by lefty
Connie, I really am having trouble with this: Do you not think that it is a disadvantage to start swimming late in life? That is just stupid.
Lefty, in the same way I can find your comment "just stupid". Let's say we have two 50 year olds. The first started swimming at age 30, and has been swimming to the present. The second swam for four years in high school, stopped swimming, and only started again last year. Are you saying that the first person, with twenty years of swimming experience, is at a disadvantage compared to the person who only swam 5 years (total)?
Aquageek,
I probably wasn't very clear about people not learning anything from these forums..... you are right in how we present our information. There is a great deal of knowledge and information within these threads.... You just have to have a good filter.
I'm not going to spend the time to go through this entire thread, but, you don't "anchor your hand", you
1.) anchor your hand and forearm (by driving the hand down in a controlled manner before pulling the elbow rearwards which keeps the elbow "up" ), then
2.) get your upper arm from the shoulder to the elbow involved (by continuing to keep the elbow "up" and in front of the shoulder) before
3.) driving the "paddle" (the combination of all the components) thru the water rearward to propel yourself forward. The "paddle" ends up appearing as an inverted "L".
Shish, I can't believe what you folks are going thru. The "M' in USMS should stand for "Mature". Get over this stuff!
During the recovery of the arm that has just completed this phase, the other arm is in the preliminary phase, so, the result should be some phase of "front quadrant", more or less.
Originally posted by jim clemmons
1.) anchor your hand and forearm (by driving
...
Shish, I can't believe what you folks are going thru. The "M' in USMS should stand for "Mature". Get over this stuff!
Hey Jim, I'm quite glad you posted this, but it did not address the question I was trying to answer. Ion considers the term "anchor", when describing swimming, to be gobbledegook. I was using the word, in context, to clarify what I meant. The fact that you used the word "anchor", without a definition, shows that there are at least two people who have the same understanding of the term. ;)
Originally posted by Bob McAdams
Let's say that we have two 50-year-olds. The first swam competitively in high school for four years, stopped swimming, and only started again last year. The second started swimming competitively at age 45, and since that time has had the same amount of training per year and the same quality of coaching that a typical high school swimmer would have. Is the second person at a disadvantage compared with the first?
Bob, that is a great question! Unfortunately, it is not the question being asked by Ion and Lefty.
Originally posted by Ion Beza
Materially speaking swimmers don't anchor anything.
You use the term 'anchor' metaphorically.
Swimmers pull (or crawl) their body thru water.
I thought about it, and you are wrong Ion. The literal definition works.
anchored verb
Hold; To hold fast by or as if by an anchor
For an observer on the pool deck, watching an efficient swimmer (Olympic or otherwise), the hand exits the water at about the same place it goes in. (For Popov, his hand exits ahead of where it went in; for less skilled swimmers, the hand exits behind where it went in.) If the hand does not move forward or backwards relative to a fixed spot, then anchored is an acceptable and accurate phrase to use.
Cynthia, a couple fo things:
- Ion doesn't compare himself to me, in fact he is disgusted by my (lack of) training habits.
- Ion does compare himself to people in masters of his own age group, his frustration is from not being "competitive" time wise unless he throws out anyone who started swimming earlier than he did.
- I did not swim as a child, I did show horses until I was 14. I started swimming as a sophmore in high school, one a days for 3 years and never lifted weights till college. Basically I sucked as a senior and "walked on" to UCSB.
- If you want an example of a REAL late starter, you may want to check out the story about Jennifer Toomey in Runners World. She was a diver in high school, didn't start running till she was 27, she's now a favorite in Greece the 800 (2:00.34 indoors).
Originally posted by DocWhoRocks
Technique vs. training hard also greatly depends on the event. I've known many good sprinters that their workouts were "less than quality", and their technique is bad - but still would go low 20s. Where as I have never known a good distance swimmer that does not work their butt off and does not have good technique.
For me (LOVE distance) it's a combination of always focusing on good technique - ever single stroke I take - and working my tail off in practice.
What's up Doc?...sorry, I couldn't resist!;) I have to respectfully disagree with you. I think technique is EXTREMELY important to sprinters. You have much less room for error on a 50 or 100 yd swim than you do on a 500 or mile! To be competitive, your start,turn and stroke have to be close to perfect. I am a sprinter and I work very hard at practice. We are all blessed with different abilities (sprint or distance), it doesn't mean that one is better than the other. I also think that good technique takes much less energy than bad technique. Watch an experienced swimmer with good technique versus a beginning swimmer who slaps and fights the water. The new swimmer with bad technique works themselves to death but is not as efficient as the experienced swimmer who has perfected their technique through practice. This is where swimmers get the advantage, it takes MUCH less energy to swim with good technique than with bad. That is why it's so important to do drills and technique work every day.
Like people have told Ion before try another stroke. I even swim a freestyle or butterfly event besides all the breaststrokes events. I think with Ion training 200 fly he would do pretty good.
Originally posted by Paul Smith
OK, I'll come back into the "dog park" and lift my leg.......
A few personal observations:
- Ion has an incredible passion/obsession for our sport, sadly in forums such as this it is very negative.
- Since I've known Ion I've always given him credit for being more fit than most masters swimmers (as well as the general population). He trains exceptionally hard, putting more days/miles into swimming than a lot of high school/college swimmers.
- His technique is extremally poor, he has marginal flexibility, he suffers from athsma and breathes side to side every stroke, has no "feel", no streamline, "flop" starts, doesn't race with goggles, doesn't eat right during meets, gets extremally nervous before races and has gotten to the times he's at purely from being "fit" (he is far stronger in the weight room than me). If Ion ever tested his VO2 max he would probably disprove his own theory, its probably far higher that most even without the base training in ages 13-19.
- This is where his obession and reality collide, he wants so badly to excel that he's devised "categories" such as "late bloomers" to gain the recognition that his stand alone swimming times can't. If this helps him stay motivated to train everyday more power to him, its the public "challenges" that he issues in these forums that are the biggest problem.
Ion, I hope you can find a more zen like relationship to your training. Swimming is a beautiful thing, much of that beauty has little to do with speed or fitness but rather with how you interact with water. My biggest thrill is simple gliding, whether thats off a turn, a start, or on a dive at 100 feet. Find that "feel/balance" and you'll find a whole new experience in the sport you love so much!
Thank you Paul for these observations. They are very much in line with the overall impression I'm getting from Ion, just by readiing this forum.
I wholeheartedly agree about him needing to find a zen-like relationship, with swimming, and with people!
In an odd sort of a way I feel for his situation, but unfortunately his attitude doesn't allow for people to get thhrout, or get close enough to him where he might actually experience some praise and positive feedback. He beats up on everyone else probably the same way he beats himself up... Actually, I believe he probably beats himself up even harder.
