is kickboard beneficial

Be *real* careful about what question you are asking. Are you comparing kicking with or without a board, or comparing "not kicking at all" versus "kicking with a board". There was a wonderfully frustrating TI discussion last summer, where Ion mentioned what great workouts he gets, using a kickboard. (Despite the number of times I asked the question, he failed to answer my TI related question: Are there any advantages to using a kickboard, compared to kicking without a board?) There are two reasons that I like to use a board, that actually have nothing to do with kicking: 1) Allows me to breathe easily. (Backstroke, I have to synchronize with my arm rate. If I kick without a board, I am susceptible to waves from other people in my face.) 2) Stretches out my lat muscles, which are usually tight for me. (I don't have shoulder problems using a board.)

I use a kickboard regularly and think it is beneficial for me. I do not experience any of the back or shoulder pain mentioned. Having said that, I think hand paddles are evil, but that is because I experience shoulder pain and I primarily see paddles used by others to go faster because their kick is no good. I cant say much about the technique effects kickboards have on my stroke. When I kick I really try to pop my center of gravity (torso) up by making it feel like I am rolling over a barrell instead of floating on a board. I don't think the little kicking I do affects my stroke technique as much as the conditioning helps me. I cheat a whole lot less with a board than when I kick without a board, and I limit my kicking to 400-500 yards of fast, hard kicking (and occasional "rest" 50's) that isolates my leg muscles and works them hard. One other thing I have started doing occasionally (when someone leaves fins out) is to swim fly and back with fins for a while (like 16x50 alternating fly, back) then take them off and do some more 50's. I find it gives my legs a workout and helps me swim more legal fly. And its fun to go real fast. Steve

ION are you familiar with the concept of muscle imbalance ? This is where most swimmers have much stronger quadriceps than hamstrings and that strengthening the hamstrings to get a closer balance in the leg muscles can lead to a better kick. This link explains it better than I can: www.zoomers.net/new-muscleimbalances.htm The second link is around ankle flexibility: www.zoomers.net/new-thekick.htm Sorry if this is info that you already know. I understand that quite a few succesful coaches are working on even propulsion on the downbeat and upbeat ( squeezing water between the feet ) and that it does seem to make a difference. I do a lot of flutter kick on my back and sides, with and without fins and I feel that it does more for my kick than kicking on a board ever did. I also stretch my ankles regularly and they are at my limit. Every little bit helps !

Just read the article on kick that you mentioned, and went onto the link www.zoomers.net/rack.htm has anyone tried this, after reading it i understand how it works, where do you get it from and how much is it? Has anyone here tried it? I really need to improve my ankle flexibility, mine is about 55 degrees, I work on leg flexibility every day but over the last 8 months or so havent had so much improvement in actual range of movement. Thanks :)

I do have " the rack ". I seem to have most " pool toys ", stretch bands, cords, balance ball, medicine ball etc. If I see something that interests me I usually try it out, both for myself and also to see if it helps in coaching. The rack is simple to use and does allow you to control the stretching force very well. You have more control then you get by putting your feet under a couch. Having said that, stretching feet under a coach can work vey well and you may find that you are happy with the results and can save the cost of buying "the rack". Marty Hull recommends soaking the feet in warm water for a period before stretching and that does seem to help. Using fins does also stretch the ankles. Eventually you will reach your limit and be unable to increase that range of motion further. I coach quite a few triathletes and boy are their ankles tight !

Along the lines of discarding the kickboard to keep the body more in a "swimming" position, do any of you use snorkels for that purpose? One of the regulars at one of my previous pools did all his kicks without a board and with a snorkel, sometimes with fins and sometimes without. He also used flip turns. Good? Bad? Makes no difference?

Ion: thank you. That was an enlightening discussion. It also explained something I have noticed in my own swimming. I too have a MUCH stronger flutter kick on my stomach than on my back. Gareth: Mr. Magaschilo has a valid point about a strong up beat in your kick causing your hips to sink a bit. This could be a problem in freestyle; however, I have found it to be an advantage in sprint butterfly. Consider, the model I use for fly is the body dolphin style TI advocates. I want my shoulders and hips to alternate going up and down to create the body dolphin effect. Since I have one complete kick cycle per arm cycle (I am not trying to sneak in another kick, as in double-beat fly), a strong up kick actually sinks my hips, and raises my shoulders at just the right point in the stroke cycle. I find it hard to maintain over 100's, since it uses so much energy (and since I am not a great flyer), but it works like magic for 50's. Lefty: the guy I think you want is Jonty Skinner, who was the first man under 50 seconds for 100 LCM, and the only one for several years. I dimly recall some speculation that an after the fact measurement of the pool where he set the record indicated it was a hair under 50 meters, but his world record was the official record for FINA at the time. I was going to recommend to you the SwimInfo page that has the top swims in each event (www.swiminfo.com/.../All_Time_LCM.asp however, he is on neither list, and looking at the times for the 100, his old world record is not even fast enough to be on the list! Matt

Originally posted by Matt S ... Lefty: the guy I think you want is Jonty Skinner, who was the first man under 50 seconds for 100 LCM, and the only one for several years. ... Matt The first swimmer under 50 for 100 meter free was Jim Montgomery (U.S.) who won gold in the 1976 Olympics with 49.99. One month later, Jonty Skinner (R.S.A.) who was banned from the Olympics because of the apartheid in South Africa, went 49.44. There was no 50 meter free in 1976. Skinner retired in the late 70s. The first 50 meter free competitions were at the World Championships in Barcelona, Spain in 1986, and the Olympic Games in 1988 in Seoul, South Korea. Tom Jager (U.S.) and Matt Biondi (U.S.) were winning these, but Robin Leamy (U.S.) and Peter Williams (R.S.A.) were unsung heroes of the 50 meter free sprints. I think that Peter Williams is what lefty was looking for, when inquiring about a South African doing fast 50 meter free races in the late 80s.

Just to further confuse everyone, 'Magaschilo' in the book 'Swimming Fastest' does not like to emphasise the upbeat of the kick. He feels that this drops the hips and creates extra drag. 'Rick DeMont' in the chapter 'Freestyle Technique' in "the swim coaching bible" does advocate emphasising the upbeat. Preferring to have the "weak kick", the upbeat, to be strengthened to more closely match the "strong kick", the downbeat. I feel that having the muscle strength of the back of the legs close to that of the Quadriceps must be a good thing. However I am not sure how much muscle force to put into the upbeat. Should it be a relaxed movement or a strong movement. I can see pros and cons to both arguments and I do not see a definite answer in the literature. The info in "Swimming Fastest" and Colwins "Breakthrough Swimming" is making me re-evaluate a lot of my beliefs , but I need to see how it works in practice. You never stop learning !

Ion, I am impressed that you can do 50M kick sets on 55. A few years back I could do that, but I was going a 23 in the 50 M free then. You weren't kidding when you said that you have a strong kick. I think that you made some great observations, but I would like to take them a step farther (further? I never know which one). WHen you said that kicking with a board allows you to concentrate on your lower body and forgetting about upper body, you are dead on. However that is the reason that you want to practice WITHOUT a board. You need to develop enough propultion kicking without a board that it too feels natural and comfortable. Kicking with a board is great exercise and it is a good for swimmers to do. However, I would compare it to running. A great thing to do, but won't necessarily help your technique. One last thing, who was the South African swimmer who was actually the best sprinter in the world in the late 80's. I think he went a 22.0 in the 50 but his WR wasn't recognized.