TI advice:
This question is aimed at on of you who have instructed people with TI methods and or stroke length vs stroke rate (such as Emmitt H, Matt S, Terry L, etc). I am one of the coaches of a master’s team along with one of these forums’ regular post contributors’, Jim Thornton. As a coach I am a proponent of TI type methods of balance, body position and stroke count. I try to teach all my swimmers to do these things and I believe that the results have been positive. I am pretty sure that every single one of our swimmers who have followed the coaching advice has improved his/her times. As a swimmer I also have been practicing body position and stroke count regularly for the past 2-½ seasons and have somewhat changed the way I swim. I am happy with the results, as my stroke looks very fluid and somewhat relaxed swimming through sets. I have not actually seen my stroke in practice but have had positive feedback from my co-coach and other swimmers.
I think that I should add a little of my swimming background before I get to my point. I was a decent college swimmer and was mainly a breastroker although I swam mostly freestyle in meets due to our roster limitations. My main events were 100yd Free (46.6 best), 50 free (22.0 best), 200 free (1:46.6 best). As a freestyler I had always had a tremendously fast turnover, even when swimming a 200. I would easily take 20+ strokes per 25yd when swimming these times. Needless to say, my turnover rate never went unnoticed.
Now this is where I need help or advice. I have been totally unable to translate TI type methods to fast swimming times. For 2+ seasons I tried to stay long and relaxed while sprinting to mixed success: I know that I felt like my stroke was much more relaxed and less tired (not as much lactic build-up) on my swims using TI methods and I did reasonably good times for my age (32) 50-51sec 100 free, 23.5 sec 50 free. Regardless, during the past 6 months or so I decided to go back to high turnover swimming and lo and behold my times went back down 48.8sec 100 free, 22.4 sec 50 free. I must admit that swimming high turnover is harder on my arms and shoulders however, I don’t really get as extremely tired (aerobic/heart rate) in practice as you might expect as I churn out 15-18 strokes per 25yd. I actually felt (and was) much more tired the 2 seasons I spent swimming low stroke count (11-14 strokes/25yd), balancing my body and using a smaller kicking motion. I am absolutely sure that my stroke looks terrible when I ‘spin’ as I do yet it seems effective.
I would prefer to swim long and relaxed for 2 reasons: 1) I love the way it feels and looks and 2) I need to keep some credibility as a coach since my team sees me not practicing what I preach. I just would like to have the best of both worlds: swim quickly and make it look good.
I don’t know if any of you have ever run into swimmers who just were unable to make the transition to faster times when swimming lower stroke count and if so what your advice would be.
Thanks for any help
Bill White
One other point regarding drills/TI/SR, etc. I run into quite a few masters swimmers who train extremally hard, however rarely at "race pace".
Quite a few people complain that they spend a tremendous amount of time working on their stroke and logging miles, however they only "rest" and race one or two meets a year often times very frustrated with breakdowns in technique or mental lapses.
If you want to swim/race fast, you gotta go to lots of meets and train once or twice a week at race pace (using all those techniques you drill on)!
Thanks to all those who responded to my query about the S pull. Today I went to the pool and discovered that in fact I had a much better hold on the water when I was not attempting to purposefully make my hands follow an S pattern. I will now practice diligently according to the Colwin dictum--- until someone writes another book and nullifies all my efforts!!!
Ken,
I totally agree with what you just said. If anything the hands are staying put during the entire underwater arm cycle, but they do however change their pitch and angle as they go from the entry snatch to the final push at the hips. Thats what I describe as sculling. Its a very subtle way to grab onto that imaginary ladder rung located under the center of your body line.
I think it's the rolling motion of the shoulders and upper torso which give the illusion that the hands are going through the motions of an S. But you are absolutely right about the hands being anchored (in both freestyle and backstroke particularly). The best swimmers in the world have their hands enter and exit the water in more or less the exact same spot.
Bill,
I've thought about your posting for about 24 hours now. I found that to swim my fastest, I use a high turnover--like 12 strokes breaststroke for 25 yards(BTW, my times are nowhere near your times). Like you, I've done tons of drills. The stroke that I use when I am swimming fast must have a tiny propulsive phase. To go fast, I have to turn over quickly so that I hit that tiny propulsive phase many many times.
Regrettably, the drills don't seem to have an impact on that tiny propulsive phase of mine. I think the drills have improved my streamline, pull, and kick, BUT they have not impacted those gyrations I go through to go fast. They miss that tiny propulsive phase of mine.
I hope a swimmer out there puts up a posting that will help.
Hang in there,
I recognize my past two years of training and complaining in the post below,
Originally posted by Paul Smith
...
Quite a few people complain that they spend a tremendous amount of time working on their stroke and logging miles, ...
...
when I did two major competitions each year, mediocrily swam.
Originally posted by Paul Smith
...
If you want to swim/race fast, you gotta go to lots of meets and train once or twice a week at race pace (using all those techniques you drill on)!
In 2002 I raced in four competitions. I can consider more.
I miss training at race pace, which ironically I was doing it on my own when getting good times for me in USMS meets in 1994 and 1995.
Then I was accelerating and sustaining kicking to a higher intensity, triggering a faster arm turnover rate, similar distance per stroke to what I have now -I think-, and I was recovering in more workouts than in the last two years.
To address this training at race speed with support from a program I recently joined, I need to synchonize my ability for recovery, threshold, and sprint, to the coached workouts, so that I peak in their threshold and sprint days.
Bill,
Just in case you (and others) didn't realize it (I didn't
until today), Paul Smith (AKA Tall Paul) was the FIRST
40 year old to break two minutes in the 200 Free--
LCM!!!! Plus other World Records....
He says his S/L increases by 40-50% in the 50 vs 200.
He says ya gotta swim fast in practice in order to swim
fast in competition.
I'll take his word for it.
Ion,don't worry. I can't sprint that much in workouts compared to what I could do 20 years ago. Anyways, at least you didn't swim an event about 23 seconds slower,I did.
In this thread reference has been made to body roll several times.Is a criteria to determine, in general, a good body roll being able to see a side of the pool on each free style stroke? Comments will be appreciated as you can surmise by now I am self coached.
hey Gil, your equating body roll to looking equally at both lane lines is on the right track. In doing so you are accomplishing the same thing, but in a better way, the swimmer who breathes every third stroke, alternately on the left and the right side. That is, primarily, the evening out of the stroke of both arms.
The more you can do this without independent head turning the better, and you can still breathe on your natural side.
Check out Emmett's website for detailed description of how you can do this. Best,
