TI advice:
This question is aimed at on of you who have instructed people with TI methods and or stroke length vs stroke rate (such as Emmitt H, Matt S, Terry L, etc). I am one of the coaches of a master’s team along with one of these forums’ regular post contributors’, Jim Thornton. As a coach I am a proponent of TI type methods of balance, body position and stroke count. I try to teach all my swimmers to do these things and I believe that the results have been positive. I am pretty sure that every single one of our swimmers who have followed the coaching advice has improved his/her times. As a swimmer I also have been practicing body position and stroke count regularly for the past 2-½ seasons and have somewhat changed the way I swim. I am happy with the results, as my stroke looks very fluid and somewhat relaxed swimming through sets. I have not actually seen my stroke in practice but have had positive feedback from my co-coach and other swimmers.
I think that I should add a little of my swimming background before I get to my point. I was a decent college swimmer and was mainly a breastroker although I swam mostly freestyle in meets due to our roster limitations. My main events were 100yd Free (46.6 best), 50 free (22.0 best), 200 free (1:46.6 best). As a freestyler I had always had a tremendously fast turnover, even when swimming a 200. I would easily take 20+ strokes per 25yd when swimming these times. Needless to say, my turnover rate never went unnoticed.
Now this is where I need help or advice. I have been totally unable to translate TI type methods to fast swimming times. For 2+ seasons I tried to stay long and relaxed while sprinting to mixed success: I know that I felt like my stroke was much more relaxed and less tired (not as much lactic build-up) on my swims using TI methods and I did reasonably good times for my age (32) 50-51sec 100 free, 23.5 sec 50 free. Regardless, during the past 6 months or so I decided to go back to high turnover swimming and lo and behold my times went back down 48.8sec 100 free, 22.4 sec 50 free. I must admit that swimming high turnover is harder on my arms and shoulders however, I don’t really get as extremely tired (aerobic/heart rate) in practice as you might expect as I churn out 15-18 strokes per 25yd. I actually felt (and was) much more tired the 2 seasons I spent swimming low stroke count (11-14 strokes/25yd), balancing my body and using a smaller kicking motion. I am absolutely sure that my stroke looks terrible when I ‘spin’ as I do yet it seems effective.
I would prefer to swim long and relaxed for 2 reasons: 1) I love the way it feels and looks and 2) I need to keep some credibility as a coach since my team sees me not practicing what I preach. I just would like to have the best of both worlds: swim quickly and make it look good.
I don’t know if any of you have ever run into swimmers who just were unable to make the transition to faster times when swimming lower stroke count and if so what your advice would be.
Thanks for any help
Bill White
I've been struggling with the same questions regarding SR and attempting to find the right tempo. One thing I think is important to consider is that you can't really compare the 50/100 to 200 and above. I hold a pretty consistent count of 10 per lap 200-500, however I jump to about 14/15 in the 50.
I've mentioned before how I find in my own swimming the key factor in changing speed is my kick. Over the middle distance events I maintain a 2 beat kick, however I have an 8 beat kick in a 50. I also find that I ride higher in the water, have less "lope" in my stroke and less hip rotation in the 50.
When TI was first being discussed on this site a couple of years ago I expressed my concern that many swimmers would misinerpret the "slow swimming" and drill elements being promoted. I guarantee that when Popov is swimming "slow" he's actually digging VERY deep and producing a massive amount of power. There is a balance, you need proper technique executed at a very high level of effort!
Bill,
Wow, mentioned in the same parenthesis as Emmett and Terry; thanks for the compliment.
You sound as well qualified to break down your stroke as I am (maybe some videotaping of yourself would help), and I cannot say anything for sure since I cannot see your stroke. However, are you sure you actually have a problem? Terry talks about training your muscle memory to swim the TI style at any speed, without thinking about it. When you race, don't think, just swim. Perhaps your perception of SL vs. SR has shifted so much, that a much improved SL now feels like you are still flailing. A SR of 20/25 yards sounds a little high, but not ridiculous for sprint events.
Are you still hitting all the TI fine points? Rolling your body, head down looking at the pool bottom, kicking in coordination with your arm stroke (See Emmett's articles "Bottom-Up Swimming")? It sounds from your comments that you feel like you are losing the "front quandrant" aspect of your swimming. Maybe you can experiment with taking a split second pause before initiating your pull, and get more of a TI action back in your stroke.
TI is not a static dogma. I can tell you from chatting with them that Emmett and Terry have different views on the use of the kick. The core idea behind it is that the human body is not designed to swim fast. Learning how to swim efficiently is an individual journey you have to tailor to your body, bearing in mind certain hydrodynamic principals. (And it's way more complicated that training your body to be able to work harder and harder using your same old mechanincs.) This is particularly true for someone like you who already swims pretty darn fast even before you started with TI. So tape yourself in workout and in a meet, compare the two with the TI videos and some of the video clips of world-class swimmers in competition. (When I looked really closely at Popov, I noticed he rotates his hips a LOT less than you would expect from reading the TI stories about him.) I expect you will find that the things you would like to change from you current "flailing" style are more incremental than you would expect.
Matt
Bill,
I wish I could help you. Like you, I feel my form has improved, but to go fast, I have to go to a high turnover. I hope someone out there can definitevely answer your question because I sure don't know.
I'm not ready to give up hope yet, but until I find an answer, I just say that the TI methods work really well for some people and not for others(regretably I'm one of the others).
Hang in there,
Terry
I have been using/learning the TI method for several years and have also become slower rather than faster. I also was attempting to use the S-shaped pull. I recently saw a copy of Colwins latest book in which he states to pull the arm straight back being sure the palm always faces backward and that the natural roll of the body will cause the hand to travel in the correct path for maximum pull. Comments would be appreciated. Also, he stresses high elbow and gives excellent hint as to how to attain it.
Yo... Bill, Those are some pretty decent times. My thoughts on sprinting vs. distance per stroke... Here is a little scenario...
Lets say you are a Drag racer, and you're putting you're rig together B4 a big race.. Somebody walks up to you and tells you to put LARGER gears in your sled...so you try it. You give it a shot, what the heck... why not? Then you run a race and find out.... The Hole shot was slower, the car took longer getting down the track... and your time sucked.
My advice would be to use the right gears...the ones YOU KNOW work. If any one tells you different.. SCREW THAT!
Shinob dood - out
I think Matt has the right idea. You practice all the form, coordinating the arms, body, legs, learn to reduce drag, keep your head down and still and other points by learning (or relearning) slowly. Commiting it to muscle memory. But when it comes to the actual race do not think of form, S/L or S/R. Some of the principles should stick if you've had enough mindful practice. This works for sprinters.
I go to many national level championships for USAS, watching all those who people talk about. I see them in warmup and cool down swimming slow with perfect form, looking like they are paying attention to their stroke form. This is not what happens during the race.
For those who swim the other distances that hardly anyone does comparisons of--- mid to long distance you can think more of the principles as you swim because you do have more time but if done your homework you don't need to.
Originally posted by Gil
I have been using/learning the TI method for several years and have also become slower rather than faster. I also was attempting to use the S-shaped pull. I recently saw a copy of Colwins latest book in which he states to pull the arm straight back being sure the palm always faces backward and that the natural roll of the body will cause the hand to travel in the correct path for maximum pull. Comments would be appreciated. Also, he stresses high elbow and gives excellent hint as to how to attain it.
I've heard from a number of coaches (including mine), as well as a couple of Olympic swimmers, that the "S-pull" is actually a function of body roll -- if your body is rolling from side-to-side while your hand remains pointed to the floor with a high elbow and pulling straight back, the movement will naturally LOOK like an "S" relative to the body, but NOT to the pool bottom. You can demonstrate this to yourself in front of a mirror. So, in a sense, the S-pull is really a optical illusion and consciously making your hands move in an S pattern is unnecessary. It might even be counterproductive since your hand could be slipping through the water.
Oh no I've been bumped from participating member to active member.
Gill- TI doesn't particularly advocate the S curve. If it works for you okay but most of us just hold the water and "pull" straight back. However it is more of a hold the water and get the body past the hand.
I've been working on T.I. swimming this entire summer. I think that the straight snatch and pull under the torso is somewhat of an illusion.
After really breaking down my technique, frame by frame, it is clearly evident that the hands are still sculling the water in what we called the 'S' shaped pull due to body roll, even though they appear to stay in a straight line.
I think the real fact of the matter is that the hands must constantly be sculling to grab onto still water which hasn't been pulled or pushed upon yet. Cause if you grab onto moving water "you'll be slipping and not gripping".
Your hand has to move from from side to side somewhat, because that's the way your arm is constructed -- the elbow joint is a hinge between two rigid parts. But, nevertheless, the motion doesn't need to be the exagerated S-pull that used to be taught.
I don't see why the water to the right or left of the your hand is any more still than the water being pushed against. If anything, deliberately moving your hand from side to side would be "slipping," not to mention wasted motion.
I think the better way to look at the motion is that the hand is "anchoring" itself and pushing the body past.
