Olympian Masters ?

I need to make a clarification in what I meant, Rob, when I said that only one side was being purposefully cruel. I was referring to those who have been what I believe is unnecessarily rude to and dismissive of Donna Dunn. USMS has its reasons for not believing her claims. That's fine. I am certainly not in a position to prove her claim one way or another. But I believe it could have been handled better than this public feeding frenzy. As for Ms. Roper, I don't know her. I am unclear on what she said originally about Donna, but I seem to recall it was without professional detachment. Certainly not a crime, but unfortunate in a situation which should have been treated with some finesse. I hope this cleared up any ambiguity. If any of you want to discuss this further, please feel free to pm me, as I am no longer interested in looking at this thread. I'm with Poolraat: :dedhorse: and with SwimStud: close it down.

This thread has been a healthy and robust debate. It seems that some wish to stop the communication. Hurt feelings and broken loyalites are sometimes necessary. Miles

Howard Squirm, If you wish to discuss this thread. Here is the place to do it not my PM box which I reserve for friends and at least non-aliases. Thanks

I have decided to log on for one last time and to not defend myself for it appears few are listening to the possibility that there could be any errors in previous paperwork constructed by humans and not done electronically and I find this almost outrageous. I choose to be careful in what I write because I have now retained legal counsel for advice options only. I just want my good name returned. Please ask yourselves one last question: why would a person deliberately lie about such a feat when it can be confirmed? The answer to this question is very simple: a person wouldn't because the blowback would be horrific. Something terrible happened in the record keeping and no one is to blame. As I mentioned before, Gail has only done her job and I just hope that all swimmers, whether they be masters, lap poolers, even noodlers if there were a category, never have to be faced with such an uphill climb. On a slightly happier note, at least everyone is digging into previous records and questioning this or that; that's a good thing, plus I am certain that people from long ago, if they were to read this thread, will feel grateful that they are being brought to the forelight and re-mentioned as the Olympians they are. Anyone who has made such accomplishments may have those memories in the background now, but all of you are bringing their memories back into the forefront. I see names I haven't seen in a long time. And new names from more recent Games and the Canadian Games. Discussion is a good thing; controversy can also be a good thing to a point. I know many of you don't believe me, so be it, but I know. When and if choose to try to clear my name, I ask one thing of you: give people the benefit of the doubt if you know them to be people with a good heart and sound mind. Documentation is not always accurate but I know that those holding the said documents just won't accept that there could be "problem". Possibilities are what I am asking for here. I am a very strong woman probably because I've been around almost 60 years, but this has just killed my family's spirit, especially my dad who was in the stands in Mexico City feeling like "somebody." I will say that I have more enjoyed than not being here for a year. This forum has hundreds of wonderful people. Even though I don't quite feel like this icon right now, I have to use it because it was my favorite: :rofl: Please close this thread. Donna

And now for something completely different..... Don't you just love the name Pokey Watson?

I thought the same thing when I was looking at those meet results. Her real first name was Lillian. I did a search and found this article about her: www.almanacnews.com/.../2004_08_25.poky.shtml Anna Lea

Comments for Gail... There do seem to be some discrepancies between the 1968 Trials results and the USOC listing of athletes (http://www.usoc.org/13220.htm). The 1968 Trials results show: MEN'S 100 BREASTSTROKE FINALS Donald McKenzie, 1:07.41 Kenneth Merten, 1:07.79 David Perkowski, 1:08.25 Brian Job, 1:08.36 Chester Jastremski, 1:08.55 Micael Dirksen, 1:08.76 Kenneth Doesburg, 1:08.77 Philip Long, 1:08.83 MEN'S 200 BREASTSTROKE FINALS Brian Job, 2:28.95 Kenneth Merten, 2:29.97 Philip Long, 2:30.57 David Perkowski, 2:31.76 Chester Jastremski, 2:31.78 Wayne Anderson, 2:31.81 Michael Dirksen, 2:32.02 Kenneth Doesburg, 2:32.30 The USOC web site (http://www.usoc.org/13220.htm) lists these athletes as follows: Donald McKenzie: 1968 Swimming 100 Meter Breaststroke Individual - Gold Medal Kenneth Merten: 1968 Swimming 100 Meter Backstroke Individual - Eliminated; 1968 Swimming 200 Meter Breaststroke Individual - Eliminated (my comment: he didn't swim backstroke at Trials; do they mean breaststroke?) David Perkowski: 1968 Swimming 100 Meter Backstroke Individual - Eliminated (my comment: he didn't swim backstroke at Trials; do they mean breaststroke?) Brian Job: 1968 Swimming 200 Meter Breaststroke Individual - Bronze Medal Chester Jastremski: 1968 Swimming Swimming Individual - Did Not Compete Philip Long: 1968 Swimming 200 Meter Breaststroke Individual - 7th ----------------------- Another odd thing... The ISHOF biography of Chester Jastremski (www.ishof.org/.../77cjastremski.html) says, "...in 1968 he allowed too little time for his comeback as he made alternate in the Trials and actually swam .02 seconds faster at the Olympics than the winning time when allowed to swim the heats for the U.S. Medley Relay Team..." - Ann Lea: That information about Ken Merten and David Perkowski is incorrect. They both swam breaststroke at the Olympic Trails and in the Olympics. They do however list the correct information on the 100 and 200 Backstroke. At the 1968 Olympics, the USA in both events went 2-3-4, with Roland Matthes winning both events and again doing the same thing in 1972. In 1968, in the 100 Back, Charlie Hickox was 2nd, Ronnie Mills was 3rd, and Larry Barbiere was 4th. In the 200 Back, it was Mitch Ivey 2nd, Jack Horsley 3rd, and Gary Hall 4th. In the old days, they used to take alternates to the Olympics if there event involved a Relay slot. This is why Chet Jastremski was chosen because he had the next place up the slot in breastroke. Even though he was 5th at the Olympic Trials, the top 3 go and Brian Job was already going in the 200, so he would swam as an alternate on the relay if the other three failed to make top 8 or there times were not satisfactory with the coaches. With this meet being at altitude some swimmers were not adjusted to it as well as others compared to when they swim at sea level. Sometimes there were swim offs with the certain members of the team to determine who would swim in the prelims. I am not sure if this happen here but it did use to happen when the individual events were not on the program. Ken Merten went a 1:10.6 and failed to qualify for the semi finals. David Perkowski made the semi finals with a 1:09.50 but did not make the final when he did a 1:09.0 and got 9th place. Ian Obrien from Australia got the 8th place spot with the identical time and I don't know if they had a swim off or they when to the Ritter touch place machine to determine who would be in the final. Because of this swim, the coaches used Chet in the prelims of the Relay. In the prelims of the Relay, Chet split 1:09.30 and that was a far cry from what Donald McKenize did in the individual event when he won the gold medal at 1:07.7 and he swam a split of 1:07.4 in the gold medal 400 Medley Relay with Hickox, Russell, and Walsh and they won by over 2.5 seconds and set the World Record. Usually if you say you are an alternate for the Olympic Team that means you placed 4th at the Olympic Trials selection meet. Bob Thomas who swim masters sometimes and is the Coach of Ball State Universlty had a sister who was an alternate on the 1968 Olympic team because she took 4th place in the 400 IM at the Olympic Trials. In 1984, when only two swimmers would make the team per individual event, then the 3rd place finisher would be considered the alternate and would swim if someone would scratch the event and not swim it in the Olympics. Bryce Hunt was an alternate in the 200 Back at the 2004 Olympic Trials but because Michael Phelps decided to not swim the event, he moved up a slot to make the Olympic Team. That is how the word alternate is used in Olympic team selection. www.bsu.edu/.../

In the list of Olympians mentioned: the one who I have seen swim include Gary Hall - both Sr and Jr Anne Warner Cribbs Debbie Meyer Webber Graham Johnson (RSA) Katrina Radke Franz Mortensen (Denmark I think) Suzie Jones-Roy Shiela Taomina Angel Martino I have a list of people from the Worlds who said they competed in the Olympics. I think I better check it before releasing it. michael

But if she wore the same warm-up suit... with the same USA patch...and sat on the same deck with the team. ...I want to believe that she was an Olympian. I think most of us would agree with this. But I certainly understand that these claims need to be verified. It's just too bad we don't have another '68 Olympian on here who could say "oh yeah, I remember her." I wonder if Gail Roper or Bill or anybody contacted any other '68 Olympians to help with the verification?

It would be a list I would not want to be on. Why wouldn't you want to be on it? I don't get it. Aren't you proud of your status as an Olympian?