Olympian Masters ?

In a difficult situation such as this, handling it in some private manner is likely preferable… It was, and even though there is a lot of commentary here, it still is. Kirk raises a good point about how one qualifies or qualified in the 1960s to be an "alternate." I'm just interested in what the story is here… Here are the results of the final heat of the women's 100-meter backstroke at the 1968 US Olympic Trials: 1) Kaye Hall, TSC 1:06.54 2) Jane Swagerty, SCSC 1:07.42 3) Kendis Moore, ADR 1:08.05 4) Pokey Watson, SCSC 1 :08.21 5) Susie Atwood. LAC 1 :08.49 6) Laura Novak, UN-MICH I :08.76 7) Patricia Bergman, R,v.C 1:08.88 8) Cecilia Dougherty, PH.AC I :09.3 Many documents of elite level swimming in the mid-late 60’s exist, such as national championship events, world rankings, and American and world record progressions. The recent research was exhaustive, and it was fascinating to delve in to the history of a whole generation of swimming so fully – even if the exercise didn’t produce the one thing we really wanted to see. I still want to give the benefit of the doubt. Me too. My approach is to “verify, not disprove”. In the long run, the quality and quantity of the research left very little doubt, if any, in this situation. One last note: the question at the heart of the provincial comment comparing SWIMMER Magazine with a Honduran newspaper was addressed in the editor’s note in the July/August issue. The additional proofreaders have been doing a super job, and that should be evident in the publication. ...maybe, just maybe this thread can return to its original intent. I hope so, as well.

Hey Quick did I ever say I won at the Olympics or the BE Games or Pan American Games if I did it is a surprise to me. I have competed in all and many other races. www.newspaperarchive.com/LandingPage.aspx www.newspaperarchive.com/LandingPage.aspx Those happened to be the years I was sick 1952 to 1962 and unable to train but was still fast enough to qualify and swim in the Olympics, BE & C games and Pan Am games. If I came first it would have been miricale but I did not. I did come second to Clarke Scholes in th Pan Am Games in 1955 and beat him the following summer. I came 4th at the 1954 Empire Games behind the three fastest 100m men in the world at that time. The only year I felt I had a chance to win the 100 at the Olmpics was 1956 but I ran head on into the wall at the 50m turn. I even beat George Breen in a 440 in 1954. I was also called the most out of shape athlete in the BE Games. I have won lots of races but I have also lost lots of races. There's no reason to doubt the validity of the recordings. But human error can and does happen. Here are the reults pages of the Commonwealth games www.thecgf.com/.../intro.asp too bad there is no such thing for the Olympic Games Just an example...Our fellow forumite geochuck (from north of the border) relates all of his victories in great detail. There's no reason to doubt his stories about friendships or experiences with some of the greatest names in swimming. And oddly enough, his swimming accomplishments don't appear to have been recorded in documents anywhere on the web. If it's not on paper, or transposed into computer format by FINA, does it mean that it never happened? Apparently the answer seems to be yes.

Here are the results of the final heat of the women's 100-meter backstroke at the 1968 US Olympic Trials: ...And here are the top 25 US times for 1968 as published in the December, 1968, issue of Swimming World magazine: Women, 100 Meter Backstroke: 1:06.2, Kaye Hall 1:07.4, Jane Swaggerty 1:08.1, Kendis Moore 1:08.2, Pokey Watson 1:08.4, Susie Atwood 1:08.7, Laura Novak 1:08.8, Pat Bergman 1:09.2, Libby Tullis 1:09.3, Cecilia Dougherty 1:09.6, Lynn Skrifvars 1:10.0, Cathy Corcione 1:10.0, Evelyn Kossner 1:10.1, Lynn Vidali 1:10.1, Kathy Thomas 1:10.5, Candy Miller 1:10.7, Camille Juarez 1:10.7, Eadie Wetzel 1:10.7, Linda Stimpson 1:10.9, Kathy McKitrick 1:10.9, Leal Whittlesey 1:10.9, Dell Henry 1:11.0, Linda Prassas 1:11.2, Camila Britton 1:11.2, Chris Bolich 1:11.5, Tassy Bolton 1:11.5, Mary Campbell Women, 200 Meter Backstroke 2:24.3, Pokey Watson 2:25.0, Susie Atwood 2:25.8, Kaye Hall 2:26.7, Kendis Moore 2:27.1, Cecilia Dougherty 2:20.2, Lynn Skrifvars 2:28.7, Kathy Thomas 2:29.3, Laura Novak 2:29.9, Libby Tullis 2:30.4, Camille Juarez 2:30.6, Ann Tasnady 2:30.7, Pat Bergman 2:30.9, Evelyn Kossner 2:31.3, Cathy Corcione 2:31.4, Lynn Vidali 2:31.7, Mary Campbell 2:31.8, Leal Wittlesey 2:33.0, Jane Swagerty 2:33.2, Barbara Thomas 2:33.2, Candy Miller 2:33.9, Linda Stimpson 2:33.9, Tassy Bolton 2:34.2, Mary Olcese 2:34.3, Terry Boone 2:34.3, Chris Bolich I agree with Bill - it is fun to look at these old documents. Especially the swimsuit ads! Anna Lea

Geek, Sometimes it's really better not to say something than to say something snarky. Just my :2cents: Paul Well said, Paul (nice to meet you) Alison

Here is a list of Olympians who have swam in masters in Canada www3.sympatico.ca/.../olymp.htm

George, Did you ever read Diana Nyad's book, "Other Shores," about the marathon swimming circuit? I read it a long time ago and thought that it was a great book. I should read it again. Anna Lea

... it's hollow and maybe churlish to slap down a dissenter when only you have what transpired.I guess I need more clarification; who slapped down whom? Were you speaking of my post “…in reviewing deleted postings I found absolutely NO posting in which Gail called Donna or anyone else a "liar".” in response to the post “…She was jumped on and called a "liar" before she had any chance to defend herself privately.”? Or is there post to which you are referring? And as for deleting the posts on Fat Swimmers; at the time, the moderators choose to delete the posts and stop the thread instead of suspending or banning the members. I’ll get in touch with the other moderators and see if they wish to reverse this decision and repost the items and ban the posters

So if anyone may wish to vilify Gail, please remember that 1) she is acting as any good historian should, 2) she is trying to follow the directives of the USOA and the direction of USMS, and most importantly 3) Gail is a volunteer, who has led the effort to track down and document nearly 200 Masters Olympians and is giving of herself to USMS in an effort to help maintain our history. Gail, I for one thank you for all you are doing for United States Masters Swimming!:applaud: :applaud: :notworthy: :notworthy: :applaud: :applaud: Nobody is trying to vilify Gail. My comments were made as,that Gail can only report what information she finds regarding Olympic athletes. Whether she does a good job is not of my concern as I don't pay her wages, and am not an Olympian. I just want to point out that this thread was revived by me alone and without any collusion with anyone else. Y'know, this isn't the FBI, but the deleted threads create a controversy of theirn. You can defend Gail's actions and justify them, but until you replace what WAS said and by who, it's hollow and maybe churlish to slap down a dissenter when only you have what transpired. If "liar" wasn't used, what was said? Please clarify for us all so we can all know what the fuss is about for sure and then put it to rest. Or better yet....just delete this whole stupid mess of a thread. Over and out. SS.

I don't know who the Howard Squirm alias is either. Certainly sends interesting PMs. I can certainly say that the night of the first incident on the "fat" swimmer thread, the "ACTUAL" olympian (PM terminology, not mine) posted and then there were 3-4 responsive posts. I don't know who Howard Squirm is ... but he or she is certainly in possession of certain information. Unfortunately, just because someone is an "ACTUAL" olympian does not automatically raise them in my estimation, as it might others. I'm sure they are mostly total class acts. And I'm sure there are some that I'd rather not associate with. All people are different. Marion Jones is an ACTUAL Olympian, but I don't admire her. Rob: I see you are threatening to ban me with your recent post. I'm sorry you take exception to my remarks about Gail. But I likewise take exception to Gails' hijacked remarks about Donna -- even if Donna is ultimately proven to be a complete and utter fraud. If you want to slap me down ... Well, you pretty much have already on this thread several times already. I'm sure no one has missed it.

I stand by my statements regarding Gail. The clear import of her posts was to call Donna a liar, and they were unnecessary and inappropriate where they were made.Me too!!! I stand by my statements: 1 – Gail (Peters) Roper is an Olympian 2 – Gail is an volunteer historian working for the benefit of US Masters Swimming 3 – Gail NEVER called Donna or anyone else a liar on the USMS discussion Forum People have shown their true colors on this thread. Both sides in this argument have been ardent in their convictions. Only one side has been purposefully cruel. I agree. And hopefully those who are being cruel to Gail can get beyond this and possibly even help her by finding and providing information from USA Swimming, FINA, USOC, USOA, or IOC; which can be used to support Donna. And maybe, just maybe this thread can return to its original intent.