What's the best way to build endurance for 200 stroke events or mid to distance free?
some people at my pool tell me to do tons of repeats with only 5 sec rest if 25s, and only 10 sec rest if 50s or 100s.
this doesn't work for me if I'm doing stroke or IM. My form breaks down after not that many repeats and I have to add more and more effort only to get slower and slower. ( and get less and less rest - double whammy!)
i know some people will do 20-40 repeats of 25 at race pace to develop a 200 but what should be the work to rest ratio?
i also know there is a science behind all this. Different intervals to train creatine phosphate energy system (ultra short) anaerobic energy system, and aerobic. Sometimes I think it might be better to give myself longer rest, like 20 sec on a 50 stroke so that I have time to clear lactate and each 50 is cleaner. But how do I train my body to clear lactate more quickly so I can actually complete a 200 stroke with quality.
People say do lactate threshold sets, but again I don't know what that really means for me in terms of work to rest ratio, and what intensity of effort in the work part?
i just did a 200 fly as 3.46 even though I was able to pull off a total swim time of 3.28 as a broken swim in practice coming in under 52 per 50 @ 1:00. I didn't think that was much rest to make that much difference but apparently 8 seconds is too much to be realistic
i think i am I am beating myself up thinking I have to workout more and more to gain endurance but maybe I am just overtraining because I'm not making the improvements I'd like to see for how often I practice.
any suggestions for me?
thanks in advance!
Yeah, I think some guy named Phelps tried them. As I recall he had a decent 200 fly. I've done the first a bunch, I think it's good for my 100 fly.
I've also read that Phelps didn't do a lot of full 200s fly in practice either. I very much disagree with the poster who said to swim easy 2-,3-, and 400s. That will train you to swim slow. I think you're on the right track: break it up into chunks where you can go fast, so you know what it feels like to go fast. And do the full one once in a while.
You can train that mental toughness back, too. Just start with shorter distances: "I am going to swim this 25 at 110%" then you can do 25 with a turn, then 25 with two strokes after the breakout, etc.
Remember, if you get 4, that is the same as a broken 200, so that is not a bad goal to start.
King Frog, I have a question about this set for my 200 breaststroke. You had mentioned how you go by your stroke count as well, and I completely agree. I am obsessive about stroke count, so I am doing my USRPT sets the same way.
Today, after I did a practice 400 IM race, I did a USRPT breaststroke set with the goal of maxing at 8 strokes (per 25 yards). Instead of my previous goal of :52's (which I know I can't hold repeatedly at 8 strokes per 25), I thought I would see what would happen at :53's. I was able to do 11x50 at 8 strokes; the fifth and seventh ones were at :52. After my failure, I did another six 50's all at :53, 8 strokes. (The first one was 7 strokes down, and 8 back).
I was now up to 17x50's, and I had never done that much breaststroke in one work out since my hip surgery. Since that hip started to feel a little fatigued, I decided to stop to avoid injury. Other than my hip, I felt great, and I knew I could have kept going.
Now, for my question: As hard as I tried, I couldn't hit more than a couple of those 50's at :52 going 8 strokes each way. I have really worked on my technique, and I think I have maxed out my abilities in that regard. Should I keep trying to go after 52's holding 8 strokes, or should I reset my goal at maintaining 52's and quicken my turnover to 9 strokes? The last time I raced 200 breaststroke, I swam 3:35, and it has been awhile since I have broken 3:30. (But, I wasn't training for the 200 breaststroke, either.) I really would like to get back in the 3:20's.
On a side note, the best I have ever been able to do with my stroke count using my improved technique is swim a 50 breaststroke at :53, 6 strokes each way. It nearly busted my lungs and muscles, though! I can also hit a :54 going 5 strokes down; however, it's 6 strokes back. Repeats of that? Fuhgetaboutit! :eek:
Do a set of 9 strokes one day and a set of 8 another day and see which feels better and more sustainable for a 200. Play with it.
Good advice; will do. :agree:
On fly, I can't believe what I have been able to do in just a couple of tries doing your recommended USRPT set (for 200 fly)! I decided to set my goal time at 1:00 :cane:, because I hadn't broken 4:00 on 200 fly since a year ago. (Now, in all honesty, I had also only put in a few hundred yards of fly in each workout, and I haven't tried to increase my speed.) Still, in my first USRPT fly set, I was able to swim 650 yards of fly following a practice 200 race (4:10). Today, I was able to hit 11x50's ranging from :56-:59, before I thought I should give my shoulders a break and sit out a send-off. I then did 5x50's at :57-:58 before another self-imposed sit out. Finally, I did 4 more at :55-:58. I ended up doing a full 20x50's of fly at 1:15 with just those two breaks. The first ones were the hardest, and I felt better later in the set. Yeah, it was very slow swimming, but I haven't done 1,000 yards of fly since my last Butternut challenge a few years ago.
Before attempting these sets just last week, I would only do 4x50 fly sets before moving on to do the same for the other three strokes. I realize that never pushing past 4x50's at any one time was doing me no favors. USRPT sets give me the opportunity to regroup after sitting out a send-off, and start fresh again. After my second sit-out, I had my fastest time at :55, after having already swum 16x50's!
Since I never had a "failure" and completed 20x50 of fly with most being under my goal, I now have the confidence to drop my goal to :59. Next, I'll drop it to :58, and so on. For me, having a good, solid foundation of fly endurance will make it easier to drop speed. (Of course, with my style of fly where my arms are diving down on recovery, I will never be fast; but, I am unable to sustain swimming fly with keeping my arms close to the surface.)
Anyway, if nothing else, I am gaining confidence and stamina with these sets! :banana: Thanks, King Frog, for your inspiration and advice. I always look to the king of the pond to show me the way!
Why is everbody here so obsessed with this USRPT stuff..don't get it.
See above.
Why is everbody here so obsessed with this USRPT stuff..don't get it.
It is kind of the new toy. Some people have had remarkable results with it. I like aspects of it and there are things I don't like. I don't do only USRPT sets ,but my other sets are still race pace,but with longer distance, longer rest. I think that due to the self limiting nature of USRPT these sets can be introduced relatively early in a training cycle without harm. i wouldn't jump into HIT sets early in the season, but some USRPT seems OK. I think that if one is going to optimize competitive performance there needs to be a significant part of the work,especially late season,pre-taper at race pace.The only way to swim fast is to swim fast.
Good for you Elaine, I don't go under 1:00 that much in fly in practice a couple of time trials with rest at 64. I did near 1:00 in it and breaststroke today and around 1:05 in backstroke. Backstroke I have a terrible flip turn and usually do open turns. The only stroke I can go 55 and lower at in practice in a set is freestyle.
Amazing,great job.
Good advice; will do. :agree:
On fly, I can't believe what I have been able to do in just a couple of tries doing your recommended USRPT set (for 200 fly)! I decided to set my goal time at 1:00 :cane:, because I hadn't broken 4:00 on 200 fly since a year ago. (Now, in all honesty, I had also only put in a few hundred yards of fly in each workout, and I haven't tried to increase my speed.) Still, in my first USRPT fly set, I was able to swim 650 yards of fly following a practice 200 race (4:10). Today, I was able to hit 11x50's ranging from :56-:59, before I thought I should give my shoulders a break and sit out a send-off. I then did 5x50's at :57-:58 before another self-imposed sit out. Finally, I did 4 more at :55-:58. I ended up doing a full 20x50's of fly at 1:15 with just those two breaks. The first ones were the hardest, and I felt better later in the set. Yeah, it was very slow swimming, but I haven't done 1,000 yards of fly since my last Butternut challenge a few years ago.
Before attempting these sets just last week, I would only do 4x50 fly sets before moving on to do the same for the other three strokes. I realize that never pushing past 4x50's at any one time was doing me no favors. USRPT sets give me the opportunity to regroup after sitting out a send-off, and start fresh again. After my second sit-out, I had my fastest time at :55, after having already swum 16x50's!
Since I never had a "failure" and completed 20x50 of fly with most being under my goal, I now have the confidence to drop my goal to :59. Next, I'll drop it to :58, and so on. For me, having a good, solid foundation of fly endurance will make it easier to drop speed. (Of course, with my style of fly where my arms are diving down on recovery, I will never be fast; but, I am unable to sustain swimming fly with keeping my arms close to the surface.)
Anyway, if nothing else, I am gaining confidence and stamina with these sets! :banana: Thanks, King Frog, for your inspiration and advice. I always look to the king of the pond to show me the way!
See above.
Good for you Elaine, I don't go under 1:00 that much in fly in practice a couple of time trials with rest at 64. I did near 1:00 in it and breaststroke today and around 1:05 in backstroke. Backstroke I have a terrible flip turn and usually do open turns. The only stroke I can go 55 and lower at in practice in a set is freestyle.
Good for you Elaine, I don't go under 1:00 that much in fly in practice a couple of time trials with rest at 64. I did near 1:00 in it and breaststroke today and around 1:05 in backstroke. Backstroke I have a terrible flip turn and usually do open turns. The only stroke I can go 55 and lower at in practice in a set is freestyle.
I can do intervals usually of 1:30 or 2;00 better than 1'15 which is easier if I do freestyle.
That seems pretty conclusive. It is also pretty impressive since you just started that way of training. Does it feel comfortable?
Yes, it does. I attribute it to a couple of reasons. First, I taught myself "power yoga" just over a year ago and do it after every swim session (6-days/week), in addition to my usual physical therapy exercises using a Theraband. I also do planks (I'm up to holding it for 1:30, but think I could go longer with shoes on rather than in bare feet), crunches, etc. In all, I spend about 45 minutes on deck doing it after my swim workout. As a result, I have developed more strength and endurance to be able to withstand the repetitiveness of USRPT workouts.
Second, I did a trade-out with teammate Mark Beatty, a Top Ten (45-49) swimmer and swim instructor. In exchange for shooting video of his strokes, he coached me on breaststroke. By the end of one session, he had me swimming a 50-yard breaststroke with a short 6 strokes down, and 6 strokes back at :53. (Prior to that session, it would take 9 strokes each way at the same speed.)
My stroke count was always too high, so he helped me with my streamline, pullout, and body position on the stroke. (He tried to get me to keep my head from popping up too soon to breathe, and I did make some improvements; however, I find it difficult to sustain. :dunno: )
Since our late-October session, I have spent most of my breaststroke yardage (which wasn't much due to being concerned about my hip) just trying to work on my stroke and stroke count. I didn't worry about my breaststroke speed at all, so my 50 has really suffered!
Now, I'm trying to put it all together, and I'm finding that USRPT is the best way to do it. My body is adapting well to the repetition within a set, and the 20 seconds of rest for 50's gives me enough time to think about what I need to do for the next 50. When I have a failure, I don't look at it negatively. Instead, I think of it as my body's way of telling me it's time to rest and regroup. When I start again, my first 50 after the rest period is always fast and feels great! :banana: For me, that's positive reinforcement the rest was needed and worthwhile.
One decision I made about USRPT that I will stick by is this: I won't do more than one set of it per stroke in a day, and won't repeat the same stroke the following day as a USRPT set. This is to help prevent repetitive stress injuries, something I am very prone to experiencing. What seems to work is following my warm-up with USRPT fly, and then moving on to freestyle. On the following day, I substitute fly with breaststroke, and then move on to a set of backstroke. Breaking up the long access strokes to separate days is important for me!
I'm finding that I fail much sooner on the second set which is to be expected; however, breaststroke and fly are my priorities, so I don't mind giving the other two strokes the backseat.
I'm going to stick with this as long as it works. I fill in the rest of my workout with drills and kick sets, and by Saturday (my 6th day in a row), I do a body check to see what I can take. Yesterday, it was a very short session of USRPT before I designated the remainder of my shortened session "Play time!" Play time consists of fooling around with underwater SDK's with fins, doing favorite drills, trying to float :lmao: (which I don't do very well) without laughing at myself, doing a couple of handstands, and :blah: with whoever is around and in a sociable mood. After that, I hit the deck for yoga and stretching, use my foam roller, and :bolt:
