Top Ten link

Do not know why, but it won't work for me either. On a related topic, I notice that the records are now 19 months old and growing white hair faster than I. When one does actually achieve such a distinction, it is nice to be able to see it in print where it belongs. I know, we're all volunteers...................:(

I have OFTEN wished for a longer list than the top ten, since I often don't make the top ten list. Vanity urges me to want to know how far above the bottom I am in any particular event. Not sure how we could make this happen... mel

Why limit it to Top 25 or Top 40? Why not take the entire database that is submitted to the USMS National Top Ten recorder and put it into a database that can be made accessible to anyone who wants to see where they rank within their age group? Here in New England we have database that lets any USS swimmer check out their times and how they rank by age group. We also have a NEM-Jason Eaddy-who put together his own website www.swimmingtimes.com that has all kinds of USS, Y and USMS swims. People throughout USMS submit times to the USMS National Top Ten recorder. They go way beyond the top ten swimmers in each age group. Better still, get the major regional championship meet directors to submit their results in a STANDARD format (SDIF from HyTek?) and submit all results to a database. Add this to the Top Ten submissions, and sort through the duplicates, and you'll have the vast majority of USMS sanctioned swims in the database (you'll miss a few swims that were done in mini-meets that do not meet the cut-off criteria used be each local LSMC top ten recorder). I think it would be great to give LOTS of USMS swimmer the opportunity to see how they ranked in their age group without having to make the top ten cut-off.

As long as all the stats are all in one database, there's no reason why we shouldn't be able to call up a complete list of times for any event, any age group (even for single-year age-groups) and, for that matter, for all years in which records are maintained in the database. Sounds like a worthy project for our beloved webmaster Jim, and it would best be discussed (and prioritized against all the other website projects) at convention in September, unless it's something that a simple database search engine could accomplish. Your thoughts Jim?

The way the system works now is that each LMSC submits the top ten times/swimmers in each event that were swum in that LMSC. Consequently, if you were the 12th or 15th fastest in your LMSC meets, you would not appear on an expanded list. To expand the list or to combine lists for one complete list would require changing how the data is collected. The best way to accomplish a change is to work through your LMSC convention delegates and the USMS Records and Tabulation Committee. It is always possible to change how things are done. Betsy Durrant

Rich: It seems like an almost trivial idea to put the entire data base of times on the web so a swimmer would be able to see how he compares to other swimmers in his age group. While Pacific may be atypical, lets look at what goes on to get that information. There are two competing meet management systems that are used in Pacific - HyTek and SAMMS, then there are a few meets where the results are calculated "by hand" and no meet management system is used. Our top ten chair, Nancy Ridout, has to take all the results input them into a computer then they can be ranked. There are about 24 age groups that will get the full compliment of 10 swimmers in each event. There are eighteen short course events and seventeen long course events. So for Pacific to put just the top ten together takes a lot of work and time. For many events there may be 20 competitors in the age group, so in Pacific putting together an entire list by hand would be even more time consuming. Then there is the problem of trying to decern the individual. There are two Michael Moores in Pacific. The USMS numbering system leaves a lot to be desired, so many times it is the name is the identifying factor. In reading the Exec Committee minutes, I see that there is a committee to look at the data base needs of the organization. Long term this may be something to be addressed, but personally I dont see it being resolved in the near term. At one time there was a place on the USMS web site to submit SDIF files and the computer would spit out the current top times. It may still be on the website, but then it would depend on each LMSC submitting each meet in SDIF format. Unfortunately that is something that Pacific cannot currently do. hope this gives you some background. michael

I have a (modest) proposal. How about in addition to the top 10 by age group, we compile the top 25 for all ages (or top 40) and make a semi-big deal about it. The data seems like it is already collected, so this would really be just another sort of it. It would be interesting to see the distribution of ages, help show how the age groups compare, and see which age groups get represented. Having it be a number different from the top ten would make it readily distinguishable from the current ranking list. I am not sure what number makes the most sense, but converting the already familiar "top 40" term might be a good idea. Steve

Let me clarify. I meant to suggest that we compile/publish the top 40 USMS times regardless of age in each event, for men and women separately. For example, Joe X does a 4:40 500 freestyle which puts him 3rd in his age group, but 39th overall. Fred Y (who is ten years older) does a 4:39, which puts him first in his age group, but 35th overall. A lot of the responses to my suggestion do not seem to address my suggestion as I intended it. While I am not opposed to other ideas such as compiling a database of all times performed per se, I don't think it can be done easily. I think my suggestion is possible based on the way data is currently gathered, as I understand it. Maybe not 100% guaranteed, but I think it would work out based on past experience.

A few comments: Steve writes: "I think my suggestion is possible based on the way data is currently gathered, as I understand it. Maybe not 100% guaranteed, but I think it would work out based on past experience." Not really its a variation on the same problem. You cannot have an accurate list of rankings regardless of age unless you go much deeper than the top ten in every age group. (Pick your favorite very fast "young" age group and imagine how many of the top 15, 20 or 30 swims might make an all ages Top 40). My point, you still need a different approach to compiling results; it still requires the cooperation of all LMSCs and USMS "Top Ten(40) Recorder, etc. If you need to go through this all effort then why not specify a standard format for meet results, have all LMSC agree to that all LMSC/Zone championship meets be in this format; that all Top Ten submission go 30/40 deep by age group and that it conform to a specified format for input into the central database. Why hard is it for an LMSC to comply? I think its quite doable. New England has a standard format for its championship meets (SDIF) and this are now routinely stored in the results database on www.swimmingtimes.com maintained by our very own Jason Eaddy. I'm sure we could marshall enough volunteer resources to deal with problem of getting mini-meet results into a format that could be taken into a central database for this purpose if someone at the USMS national level can get other LMSCs to participate. Also we remain quite interested in "electronic" meet competition with other LMSC during SCY and SCM championship season. As Rick Osterberg suggested to Michael Moore, NEM would be open to an electronic competition with Pacific Masters during our next SCY Championship. We could even schedule some events in real-time and display them on both our web and pool scoreboard. (We would arrange a late morning start for non-distance events to adjust for the 3 hour time difference). This is not difficult AS LONG as we use some standard software (doesn't Hy Tek has some arrangment with USMS) for scoring and results.

Seltzer: I stand by my statement that in actuality, compiling the top 40 from the top ten data would work based on the data that is currently gathered. The top ten data for each agegroup has more than ten people's data gathered. I think that the dispersion of ages represented is surprisingly wide, contrary to your comment about it being just the young people. For example, I just used one of the above links to look at the top 40 men 100 free SCY (not sure what year), but the results may be surprising: 19-24 4 25-29 8 30-34 11 35-39 8 40-44 7 45-49 2 I see a bell curve in my head. I propose that this data is typical. I need to get back to work. Steve