Of course, Emmett is right, but I am not sure how many swims would really be lost. I presume that the full nationals results would be available for inclusion, and maybe that would be a reason for not having a top 25 for SCM? Thus, the only times that would not be included would be if someone did a top 25 eligible time that was not in the top 10 in their region for their age group, and was not done at a national competition. Finally, if someone sees that his or her time is being excluded in the rough draft, they can let the list creator know, and the correction could be made. The result would not be flawless, but that covers most of life.
I do think it would be interesting to see how many mature competitors can make a top 25 list. And while a top 40 list would be better, trying a top 25 list with the available data seems like a good first step, and one that is easily doable for at least LCM and SCY.
Using only data submitted by LMSCs to National for Top Ten could not be expected to produce a National Top 40 listing that had any validity whatsoever.
Simply consider the guy who placed 11th in a BIG, competitive LMSC (like Pacific) in the 30-35 age group and thus didn't get sent on for National TT consideration. I don't think it likely that his time would be slow enough not to be a legitimate T40 listing. But if it isn't submitted, it wouldn't make the list. The 12th place guy (and mebbe even the 30th place guy) might also be in the same boat.
Assembling a National T40 listing from TTen submissions from each LMSC would be a bit like assembling the National TTen listings just from TThree listings from each LMSC.
Steve –
When you say "all ages T40" do you mean a single list of the top 40 swims regardless of age or a top 40 for each age group?
And to your question of Emmett (or Emmit or Emit) there are many examples where 6 to 8 of the current Top 10 are submitted from a single LMSC. This us because many of the Top 10 times are achieved at USMS Nationals. All times for Nationals are submitted by the LMSC of the meet not of the participants. So to get a Top 40 it would make sense to somehow include top 10’s plus nationals.
Emmit wrote
"Simply consider the guy who placed 11th in a BIG, competitive LMSC (like Pacific) in the 30-35 age group and thus didn't get sent on for National TT consideration. I don't think it likely that his time would be slow enough not to be a legitimate T40 listing. But if it isn't submitted, it wouldn't make the list. The 12th place guy (and mebbe even the 30th place guy) might also be in the same boat"
I am not saying that it is impossible to get it wrong using top ten data, but I am saying that, based on real life experience, it is extremely unlikely.
My quick study showed that 11th in one age group was (again, in real life experience) about what you need to get top 40 in all ages. I contend we have top 15 or so based on the LMSC data provided (but its not 100% guaranteed, I admit).
I'd like someone (In particular Emmitt) to come up with a real life example where 10th place in an LMSC agegroup top ten was top ten in USMS, much less top 40 in USMS over all ages. While possible, I contend it has never happened.
Emmett (sorry about mis-spelling your name multiple times)
You wrote "Assembling a National T40 listing from TTen submissions from each LMSC would be a bit like assembling the National TTen listings just from TThree listings from each LMSC."
It is exactly like it, except that the probability of getting the right answer is much different.
The probability of getting the "right" top ten from top three LMSC's might be, say, 50% likely, if you look back at historical data.
I contend that using LMSC age group top ten to produce all ages T40 would be something like 99% likely to produce the "right" rankings.
That would be close enough for me.
Originally posted by matysekj
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I'm always willing to add more results to the database, but there is no way that I could keep up with the hundreds of meets across the country and pester each and every meet director for their results.
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To have one centralized database ranking all swimmers accross US, as opposed to having one database of Top10 derived from what each LMSC declares as a local Top10, and a different database derived from what meet directors want to declare to Jim, a solution is to make mandatory declaration to Jim of every USMS meet results in order to build a single database.
This centralized database becomes then the only single source from which Top10 by event, age group, gender as well as TopEveryone by event, age group, gender are drawn.
It does make sense for everyone to see the personal ranking in the exhaustive list of competitors, in the same event, age group and gender.
While it might be nice to have "all" meets deposited into a National database by meet directors, it is likely unrealistic, at least at this time.
Results from those meets that are still done by hand, or done using software that doesn't produce the types of files needed, would still need to be input by hand. I don't think Jim (or ANY individual) will be volunteering for that job.
Of course, we COULD make use of the "proper" software mandatory - but that would simply cause at least some those meets currently done by hand to fold.
Even if submission is mandatory there would need to be some sort of followup/enforcement system in place - that would have to be done at the LMSC level. With the current TopTen system, the LMSC TT chairs often have to spend inordinant amounts of time nagging and cajoling to get meet directors to submit their results in the proper format and in a timely fashion. And that's when they have immediate and concrete proof of submission in their hands when it occurs.
Steve,
I’m not sure as to the mechanics of it, but I would guess that your next step in getting USMS to create a Top 40 is to present a proposal to the Records and Tabulation Committee or the Communications Committee, defining specifically what you are looking for in the Top 40 and request that the committee submit a budget line item for development costs.
If neither one of these committees is the proper starting point, then you may wish to contact the USMS Webmaster (Jim Matysek) for the correct procedure.
Good Luck!!!
OK, so if we are done with the "It cant be done" phase of this discussion on T40, can I get back to my original suggestion that we do it?
While I am aware that we could do a jillion different things with records and rankings and data, I want to do a few and make them mean something.
I think T10 has obtained its status as an age group accomplishment over time. I'd like T40 to obtain status as a USMS accomplishment.
