New Organization for Adult Swimmers

I went to the site and read through the whole thing like others did. Lots of what he is proposing has been talked about in these discussion boards as well as at the convention. Why not sanction the use of 25 yard/meter races? When this was discussed, something came out about our insurance being invalidated if we had events other than the standard and 25s wouldn't be standard. Seems like 25s would add some fun to meets and might get more people to compete. Since his goal seems to be centered around competition then this makes a lot of sense. I don't see how it would hurt USMS either. If Dr. Ron swims a 54+ 100 SCM IM in a Grand Prix meet then why isn't it a Masters world record? Any 35 year old want to say they've been faster? He was a Masters swimmer last summer. I don't know if he is in 2002. I have to think the sanction process and level of officiating and pool measurement at the Grand Prix meets is every bit as good as the average Masters meet. I know we've made some steps toward making it easier to set Masters records in non-Masters meets but why should it be any harder than if he'd done it at the USMS Arizona State Champs? I don't mean to imply that Dr Ron cares. He probably doesn't and hope he doesn't mind if I use him as an example. He's unhappy with Nationals. That's not a new topic. It's certainly be debated here and there's always a split decision. He wants your age to be your real age and not some artificial age. Next year, I'll be 44 in a SCY meets in Jan and Feb. 45 in a SCM meet in March, 44 in a SCY meets in April and May and 45 for LCM. And People thought it was confusing when you had to remember if your toes could be above or below the water for a back start. Single year age groups seems like a bit much and the whole emphasis on records seems like a marketing ploy to get people to sign up. I think it would be a mistake to just write it off. Not everything seems like a bad idea.

jes some random thoughts... While we're being distracted by Enron down in Houston... San Antonio, home of the original Maverick family is just down the road a piece from Austin... Yards as well as meters open to the world! What would Ronald Reagan say. Or is that what he had in mind when he got the US off the meter track as practically his first order of busines when he was sworn-in as President. (Or did he think we'd forget)?... World records starting from scratch... Records for those born in the same year, ...no, same yearly age... Relay records for total all ages, like: 73, 74, 75, 76, etc... Men, women, mixed, i guess... Maybe 3 men & 1 woman, etc...why not? No, that'd be tooo much. Still, seems like world records for everyone who wants one. And only for the cost of the administrative fee of ??? Is the records concession open for bids??? Now, if they'd consider the seconds only timing system...

As I read through ASA site info, it occurred to me that there's quite a bit about records and not much else. "We provide programs and services to the adult swimming community, certify adult swimming records..." - The only service they (so far) provide would be taking in reports of records. If I read it right, the FAQ lists no date requirements for records, so apart from the 25 yard stuff, there's nothing preventing you from submitting all your record swims from the beginning of time. In fact, having read through it, this ASA would appear to be a nice little set up where you pay them to post your times and they do nothing else. Shell out the $48+ to join (+$75 to establish a team), let everyone else do the work and send your results to ASA. "...sanction swimming competitions for adults..." HOW? and, from their Mission statement: "To make swimming meets easy to host and enjoyable for everyone involved" This isn't really addressed (yet?) on their site, regarding how to host meets or even what rules to follow, if any. If they are accepting bids ($$) for hosting state, national and world championships, I'd expect there to be some info on the requirements. One thing occurs to me right away - pool length! There's nothing in the FAQ that even says, 'hey, we're working on this stuff, check back soon" Perhaps the tag lines in the site should be changed to read: "The leader in adult competitive swimming record-keeping " "WE'RE PUTTING WORLD RECORDS UP FOR SALE " What the heck is the ASA logo supposed to be? A Rorshach test? :o Rich Barkan

Reading the press release reminds me of the old Foghorn Leghorn cartoon. Foghorn is confronted by a bird 1/10th his size. The small bird declares, "You're a chicken, and I'm a chicken hawk! So, are you going to come along quietly, or do I have to muss you up?" The good Dr. is welcome to give his organization a go. If some people see value in it, and ASA and USMS operate in such a way that they do not detract from each other, hey, it's cool with me. (Under the Frank Zappa theory of "Do what you wanna. Do what you will. Just don't mess up your neighbor's thrill.") However, I did find some statements in there that I simply can't overlook. First and most egregious, USMS has moved away from its orginal goal of competition and focused more on fitness swimming?! I am open to any corrections or comments from the "old timers" who were in on this at or near the start of USMS, but my impression is that the orginal goal WAS fitness swimming, with a few meets tossed in to add a little spice. My understanding is that the sharper focus on better competition happened a bit later after enough people who were interested in more serious competition got involved. We can have a discussion about what the future goal of USMS ought to be, and history would not necessarily be relevant. But, this particular piece of revisionist history really chaps my backside. Second, there is the almost laughable contradiction between the multiplicity of new events and single year age groups on the one hand, and then on the other the criticism of competitive competitions at USMS Nationals. I am, of course, assuming that his beef with Nationals is that too many "slow" swimmers are permitted to enter. If that is the case, how will adding events and exploding the number of age groups by a factor of five address this? Is he counting on the fact ASA, and its parallel Nationals meet will be less well attended than USMS Nationals? And finally, he not only wants to keep track of numerous new world records, he is openly shilling the process of "The Race for World Records." So apperantly, he's thrown open the doors to make "world records" as inclusive as possible, but only to ASA members. I could also be a published author, as long as I am willing to pay a vanity publisher to print 500 copies of my book. At what point does this become the sound of one hand clapping? In sum, good luck to all of you who want to joins ASA. Some of the aspects/proposals contained in its charter could be useful, by themselves. BUT PLEASE, get serious about which of your organization's goals you want to pursue first. Matt

Hey Peter....you mean Super Man (Jim McConica) don't you?

I hope I don't sound t-o-o-o cynical if I suggest that one year age groups would effectively remove Keith from competing directly against the most awesome force in Masters distance freestyle, Jim McConica?

I have a question for those who may be in the know ... What has Keith Bell done within USMS to try and affect changes that, in his mind, could have had a positive impact on our organization? He obviously has a number of different issues with USMS, but I'm not hearing that he may have attempted to work within the system to resolve these issues. That to me would gain him some credibility. I've simply not heard his name come up as someone who has been involved with USMS in trying to affect positive change. What has he done before this? Or, maybe the question is what didn't he do that he might have done before pouring so much energy into duplicating effort and creating an organization that will most likely create confusion for folks who are checking out adult swimming for the first time? Can anyone shed some light here? I'll copy him on this message.

While I do have the same questions most of you are asking, this is specifically in reply to Matt Shirley's post of 2-5-02 at 9:34. Matt, you wrote, "However, I did find some statements in there that I simply can't overlook. First and most egregious, USMS has moved away from its orginal goal of competition and focused more on fitness swimming?! I am open to any corrections or comments from the "old timers" who were in on this at or near the start of USMS, but my impression is that the orginal goal WAS fitness swimming, with a few meets tossed in to add a little spice. My understanding is that the sharper focus on better competition happened a bit later after enough people who were interested in more serious competition got involved. We can have a discussion about what the future goal of USMS ought to be, and history would not necessarily be relevant. But, this particular piece of revisionist history really chaps my backside. " Sorry Matt, but this is one area where I mostly agree with Keith Bell. I'm one of those "old timers." My first Masters meet was in 1973, and my recollection, unless totally dimmed over the years, is that Masters Swimming was founded in 1970 (or a year or 2 earlier) by Dr. Ransom Arthur, for the express purpose of providing a place where older swimmers could continue to compete. The added benefit to these "older" swimmers was the fitness aspect to be achieved from continuing to exercise beyond the "over-the-hill" ages of roughly 17 for female swimmers and 21 or so for male swimmers as was the case when Masters began (pre-Title IX). The emphasis on competition at that time was what enticed me to begin training again, and to join USMS. To this day, I find it difficult to train without having the motivation of attempting to achieve my goals for times which are only measured in a competition. To me, the only fair way to measure is in a competitive situation, everyone diving off the starting blocks when the beeper sounds and finishing by touching the electronic touch pad at the end of the prescribed distance. Everything else is just an estimate. I'm sure we all know someone who fudges their times by pushing off the wall early, or stopping 3 yards from the end wall and claiming the time seen on the clock at that moment. Over the past 30+ years, the mission of USMS was expanded to include the fitness aspect, and now that the large majority of our members do not compete, the fitness issues loom larger and larger, with less and less emphasis on competition. (Ironically, a couple of years ago at the annual convention it was pointed out that we spend the bulk of our time in the House of Delegates debating rules of competition, not fitness.) I have to further agree with what I think is Keith's position that our Nationals are not designed to foster the best competition. The days are indeed far too long to allow for optimal swimming performances, and the meets are attended not by ALL the best swimmers in each age group, but by those who either have the funds to travel to all meets, or who pick a meet one year because of its location (e.g., Hawaii), and skip meets in other years for the same reason. I love going to Nationals, and I have gone to World "Championships" but I will only go to future World meets if the location interests me. Neither Nationals nor Worlds are truly Championships. They are Invitationals or "Open" meets, pure and simple. If Keith Bell's ASA can provide true Championship events, all the better. Would I like to see this venture detract from USMS? No. (Actually, I would like to see USMS provide true Championships.) All I'm saying is that I can understand his frustration. steve1young asks what Keith Bell has done from within USMS to create change before breaking off. The Bell's have been active members of USMS for many years (I first met Keith at the USMS LC Nationals in 1978), and he has often raised his issues at USMS conventions. However, as you can see from the previous posts, not too many people within the organization have wholeheartedly agreed with his ideas and prior attempts to work from within, so I would guess that is why he is venturing out on his own. All that being said, I also have the same concerns many of you have expressed about the fees being charged in return for unknown and/or minimal benefits. Helen Bayly pretty much asked all the questions I have. I await Keith's response to her message.

ASA stands for Amateur Swimming Association, Great Britain. Any copyright infractions here? My general objection to this Bell/Deeter group, apart from the inaccuracies and revisionist history, is B/D's overt grab for money, under the pretense that they can record world records - but ONLY for those rich enough to send fat fees to B/D. 1. Is the real purpose of this group to "allow" us to "own" a record, have our names in print, and to charge us money for buying into Vanity Press? 2. Should group call itself "SWC", aka Swimmers With Cash? There will be countless numbers of swimmers who may set world times but may not have the cash to buy access to this exclusive group's lists of Swimmers With Cash. 3. I know my history: USMS emerged from Dr Ransom Arthur's efforts (w AAU too) re FITNESS. Check with Dr. Paul Hutinger, another fitness pioneer from the 1970 launch of this fitness program for swimmers. 4. "Adult" nowadays means pornographic. Perhaps this is really what Bell/Deeter mean! (I've asked them, by e-mail, to clarify this - and to answer questions relating to my other comments here.) 5.Is this a "confidence" hustle similar to the latest versions of an imitation "Who's Who" where people are asked to send lots of dollars to a publisher, in exchange for being printed up with their own (invented?) information/ego boosters! Here, folks are being asked to send lots of dollars to have their own information printed up by Bell/Deeter, who - like kingmakers - will pronounce someone the champ. Never mind all the other, faster folk who just didn't have the cash to buy the space and attention. 6.For those who join (becoming shareholders?) the Bell group, which by my calculation will haul in the dollars: will the profits/proceeds be shared by Bell and Board (which seems a tightly-controlled group of "in" people)? How did Bell/Deeter get hold of my/other USMS addresses? They've already e-mailed me (last night) ON their "adultswimming" system, despite their never having asked/consulted with me. 7. Will their books, accounts, lists etc., be available to all who join Bell/Deeter? Many other questions - this is enuff for today.hb.

Originally posted by helen bayly Here, folks are being asked to send lots of dollars to have their own information printed up by Bell/Deeter, who - like kingmakers - will pronounce someone the champ. Never mind all the other, faster folk who just didn't have the cash to buy the space and attention. Or who flat out don't want to be bothered as they are not interested in a meaningless "world record". Question: What gives ASA the right to just arbitrarily decide to throw out perfectly good world records? Just wondering.