After being "spoken to" by the lifeguards about training SDKs, I am wondering how dangerous it really is to do multiple full 25 SCY SDKs.
Consider this set:
Fins on.
10x/2:00
This is just an example. Basically I'm referring to any set that contains multiple full 25 SDKs on a fixed time interval.
I've seen multiple people post sets like this in their blogs.
I've heard that on some age group teams the coach will demand that swimmers complete N full 25 SDKs on some fixed interval or everyone does it over.
The above observations would suggest that training full 25 SCY SDKs is a reasonable thing to do, but I've talked to some coaches and guards who seem to genuinely believe that even going past mid-pool underwater is just asking for trouble.
For a reasonably fit masters or age-group swimmer (Let's say a "BB" or stronger swimmer between the ages of 10 and 70 who can comfortably train 4x1hr/week), what do you think:
-Sets like these are generally safe as long as you don't do something stupid, like intentionally hyperventilate to the point of making yourself light headed before your push-off.
-Sets like this are generally safe, but you can never know if you have an un-diagnosed medical condition that renders them very dangerous so you shouldn't do them.
-Such sets are a little risky, but it's a risk you have to take to get really good at SDKs.
-If you do this kind of training regularly, you will eventually pass out under water and possibly die.
-The modern world is sufficiently rampant with litigation that no one can admit that sets like these are safe, even as anonymous vote on this forum.
In 1977 I was in a run/swim competition (yes the run was first). About 100 yards from shore I picked up my head to spot the finish and a guard (on a board) asked me if I was okay, I replied "I'm fine". I passed out about 10 yards later. My issue was heart related, my point is that when you become oxygen deprived your brain isn't functioning correctly. You can't depend on your brain giving you "warning signls".
Blackout happens unexpectedly when the CNS assumes blood CO2 is at a safe concentration when it isn't. Avoiding deep breathing, hyperventilating, or even heavy breathing after efforts, and resting sufficiently is the protocol I use for hypoxic sets. For me, the need to pee is probably10 meters shy of blackout. I also get teeth pain along with it.
Didn't mean to scare anyone just inform. My experience is obviously very rare and it happned because I was very dumb. I ran 3 miles in extreme heat (I'm not a good runner) and swam in 85+ degree water. At the time I was an elite swimmer and believed myself to be invulnerable to passing out in the water and drowning.
The risk of doing short underwater swims would seem to be extremely small but if you think you are invulnerable you may extend the length and unknowingly increase the odds. Also, please don't use the "pee indicator" as a standard for protection.:)
How do you know its 10m shy? Have you blacked out?
this sounds very scary to me and i can go pretty darn far uw
Agreed.This sounds like you have an early warning system that only has to fail once for disaster. Please don't go more than 25 underwater.
Never blacked out. Just tried to illustrate the problem with doing hypoxic swimming dangerously by hyperventilating or by being unrested. This is supposed to block any warning signals
Not trying to minimize the issue, but risk assessment/perception is a tricky thing. Probably the riskiest thing any of us do is get behind the wheel of a car. Driving above the speed limit demonstrably increases that risk but many do it without a second thought. Taking your eyes off the road to change the radio station (much less, God forbid, text someone) is likely significantly riskier than doing 25s underwater.
I have never seen someone die of shallow-water blackout but I have seen two people die (literally, not figuratively) just after a 200 fly race. Not to mention other races. Should I never do another meet again? We choose to exercise in a medium that can kill us if something goes wrong, wouldn't it be safer to run on a treadmill instead?
My point is that there is almost nothing that is risk free and each of us does his/her own risk-benefit calculus, often sub-consciously, before engaging in such behavior. If I had to guess at the top three risky behaviors I do, underwaters wouldn't even make the list (for the record, I'd guess them to be, in order: bike riding, driving, and over-indulging my sweet tooth). Others may come to a different conclusion for themselves.
And coaches have a whole different set of worries. If I were a coach I have no doubt I would not ever ask someone to go past 15m underwater, and even then I'd be cautious. When I was in college I heard of coaches who would DEMAND that the whole team do 50s no-breathers. Those days are gone I think.
Here is a set that was posted on Swimswam for working underwaters:
SET #2: “SHOOTERS”:
(typically done with fins, though sometimes without)
14-20 x 25 @ :35
1 underwater, 1 however you want
2 underwater, 1 however you want
3 underwater, 1 however you want
4 underwater, 1 however you want
(5 underwater, 1 however you want)
Here is the link to the full article:
swimswam.com/.../
Ok, so this set looks like it would be classified as insanely dangerous by at least some folks, so why is an age group team doing it? Are they lying and just trying to intimidate the competition? I doubt it. Ok, so you say, well those are really great age groupers, some of whom contend for NAG records so it is ok for them to do it- they are experts. Well yes, but clearly they had to start from someplace much less proficient than that, so how did they get to point of doing this set without *attempting* this set? Of course I know the answer, they built up gradually, but I can only assume that they must have pushed their limits very very hard many many times to get there. In my experience, the only way to get better at anything, is to push your limit very hard over and over and over again. The only reasonable conclusion I can reach is that such pushing must be a reasonably safe thing to do. Am I wrong?
I think this issue goes well beyond Karl working on his underwaters. If I am correct, that practicing SCY 25 SDKs is reasonably safe, then there must be some other reason that a few, but non-zero number of people are suffering shallow water blackout. Instead of saying that practicing SDK is dangerous and we should not go past mid pool, I think we (the swimming community) ought to figure out what is really leading to those cases of shallow water blackout so that we can prevent it, instead of making blanket statements that one should not ever swim underwater past mid pool (or past the flags if certain lifeguards are to believed).
Here is a set that was posted on Swimswam for working underwaters:
SET #2: “SHOOTERS”:
(typically done with fins, though sometimes without)
14-20 x 25 @ :35
1 underwater, 1 however you want
2 underwater, 1 however you want
3 underwater, 1 however you want
4 underwater, 1 however you want
(5 underwater, 1 however you want)
Here is the link to the full article:
swimswam.com/.../
Ok, so this set looks like it would be classified as insanely dangerous by at least some folks, so why is an age group team doing it? Are they lying and just trying to intimidate the competition? I doubt it. Ok, so you say, well those are really great age groupers, some of whom contend for NAG records so it is ok for them to do it- they are experts. Well yes, but clearly they had to start from someplace much less proficient than that, so how did they get to point of doing this set without *attempting* this set? Of course I know the answer, they built up gradually, but I can only assume that they must have pushed their limits very very hard many many times to get there. In my experience, the only way to get better at anything, is to push your limit very hard over and over and over again. The only reasonable conclusion I can reach is that such pushing must be a reasonably safe thing to do. Am I wrong?
I think this issue goes well beyond Karl working on his underwaters. If I am correct, that practicing SCY 25 SDKs is reasonably safe, then there must be some other reason that a few, but non-zero number of people are suffering shallow water blackout. Instead of saying that practicing SDK is dangerous and we should not go past mid pool, I think we (the swimming community) ought to figure out what is really leading to those cases of shallow water blackout so that we can prevent it, instead of making blanket statements that one should not ever swim underwater past mid pool (or past the flags if certain lifeguards are to believed).
As a swimmer and coach (both for Masters and USA-S), I have no problems with underwaters, and have done similar sets to this one before, as well as have given my Masters swimmers similar, but shorter sets. The key, in my experience, is to know your limits. If you get to the point where it hurts to continue underwater (diaphragm is jumping, tunnel vision, etc), GET TO THE SURFACE. I keep a very close watch on my swimmers when I have them do underwaters or breath control sets, and believe that when done reasonably and under careful supervision, they're no dangerous than any other set we do.
Examples of breath control/underwater sets I've had them do:
8 x 25 on :35 - underwater
8 x 50 on 1:00 - free swim, taking no more than 8/7/6/5/4/3/2/1 breaths per 50
12 x 50 on :55 - under/over
On any breath control/underwater set, I encourage them to make it the whole way underwater or to hold the breathing pattern, but emphasize that if they need to take a breath before the end of the lap/50, to go ahead and take the breath. When done responsibly and under careful supervision, I don't see breath control/underwater sets being any more inherently dangerous than any other set. Yes, there are some people who have blacked out and possibly drowned while doing a breath control set. On the other hand, there are people who've had heart attacks after competing in a race. Heck, there was one swimmer on my team (at a practice I was swimming at, not coaching) who had a heart attack during the relatively tame main set.
Swimming carries an inherent risk of danger, no matter what set or distance you're swimming, or where you're swimming it. Common sense, responsibility, and proper supervision can mitigate many of those risks. As a coach and a swimmer, I am absolutely comfortable with swimming and coaching breath control/underwater sets and have no compunctions about having myself and my swimmers do underwater 25s or engage in extended breathing patterns.
