After being "spoken to" by the lifeguards about training SDKs, I am wondering how dangerous it really is to do multiple full 25 SCY SDKs.
Consider this set:
Fins on.
10x/2:00
This is just an example. Basically I'm referring to any set that contains multiple full 25 SDKs on a fixed time interval.
I've seen multiple people post sets like this in their blogs.
I've heard that on some age group teams the coach will demand that swimmers complete N full 25 SDKs on some fixed interval or everyone does it over.
The above observations would suggest that training full 25 SCY SDKs is a reasonable thing to do, but I've talked to some coaches and guards who seem to genuinely believe that even going past mid-pool underwater is just asking for trouble.
For a reasonably fit masters or age-group swimmer (Let's say a "BB" or stronger swimmer between the ages of 10 and 70 who can comfortably train 4x1hr/week), what do you think:
-Sets like these are generally safe as long as you don't do something stupid, like intentionally hyperventilate to the point of making yourself light headed before your push-off.
-Sets like this are generally safe, but you can never know if you have an un-diagnosed medical condition that renders them very dangerous so you shouldn't do them.
-Such sets are a little risky, but it's a risk you have to take to get really good at SDKs.
-If you do this kind of training regularly, you will eventually pass out under water and possibly die.
-The modern world is sufficiently rampant with litigation that no one can admit that sets like these are safe, even as anonymous vote on this forum.
It's going to be a lot easier to push off from the wall and kick out 15 meters after you've rested in practice than it is when you are fatigued and oxygen-starved during a race. I think that much is a given. If there's an argument for doing underwater kicks for a full 25 yards I think it's because you need to do something much more difficult in a workout to get close to the same "feel" as you'd have during a race.
It's going to be a lot easier to push off from the wall and kick out 15 meters after you've rested in practice than it is when you are fatigued and oxygen-starved during a race. I think that much is a given. If there's an argument for doing underwater kicks for a full 25 yards I think it's because you need to do something much more difficult in a workout to get close to the same "feel" as you'd have during a race.
good point. It never ceases to astound me when I watch someone do ca 8 SDKs off the last wall in a 200 back! Sometimes I am so starved for oxygen at that point it takes all the will power I can muster just to put my head under for a flip turn, let alone a long kickout.
Since the longest you can stay underwater in a (non-breaststroke) race is 15 meters, does it really make a lot of sense to do underwater 25s?
I think this question gets to the real point. I do shooters with and without fins very regularly, but one of the points of doing them for me is to know just where the 15m mark is. Because I dabble in the 50 back, I care both about how to SDK well and also about when to stop.
If I raced the 50 free or the 50 fly I might practice my intended breathing pattern from time to time. But I don't race those events, and aside from such practice I see no point in face-down efforts without breathing. To the contrary, because I race pretty much only 100s and up in face-down events, and because the shortest of those events still take slow-twitch me about a minute at best, I see far more point in practicing efficient breathing technique than in practicing holding my breath. If I want to practice keeping my head still I can put on my snorkel.
One of our assistant coaches assigns "breath control" sets pretty often and I always tell her that I refuse on principle to do them.
Chris Stevenson writes:
...
If you want to work on underwater kicking in a serious manner -- more than 1-2 kicks off the walls -- there is no safe distance. So it becomes a matter of not ignoring warning signs or doing something stupid. For me the warning sign is a need to pee (which I never give into, of course!), which occurs before any spots or narrowing of vision or diaphragm spasms.
But Kevin in Md:
You say you feel fine and that's the key kinda, that's what makes it dangerous, in shallow water blackout you feel fine until you just blackout.
So is Chris kidding himself? If we can't go by "feel" because we are going to be feeling fine and then simply black out, (i.e. there are no "warning signs") then practicing SDK is pretty scary business. Since it is cold water not breath control that makes me feel like I need to pee, it seems that the best warning sign is wanting to breathe. Well that's silly. I feel like I "need to breathe" pretty much all the time at swim practice!
Now I know it is stupid to intentionally hyperventilate, but if I just finished a hard effort obviously I am going to breathe hard while I recover, and unless I don't do another effort until the next day, I'm obviously not going to be *completely* recovered before my next SDK effort. Furthermore, of course I am going to take a great big gulp of air before I push off. Just before my flip turn in a backstroke race I grab the biggest breath I can too. Now am I supposed to believe that this is dangerous and I should not take a big breath before my turn? Right. if you say that I am suspecting that you are just looking for ways to disadvantage your competitors, while you fully plan to breathe all you want yourself.
So is Chris kidding himself? No, just playing the odds. But if you listen to Bob Bowman (NBAC) 1 shallow water blackout death is too many. I heard Bowman talk about having to pick up Louis Lowenthal’s gear bag from the pool deck and return it to Louis' parents. There wasn’t a dry eye in the house.
For me it’s less about guys like Chris who know what they’re doing and more about the people who see Chris and try to imitate or beat him.
Shallow water drowning is a possibility and a tragedy.It is a good idea to not do underwaters without someone trained watching you.Never go more than 25,never stay under once you want to breathe,never ever hyperventilate before underwaters.
That said,I am sticking with my statement that 25s underwater are reasonably safe for a competent competative swimmer.
It is true that the urge to breathe is hypercapnea(too much CO2 in the blood) and not anoxia(too little oxegen in the blood).Under most circumstances the 2 are very closely linked,but hyperventilation decreases CO2 without increasing O2 so that you start off with a potentially fatal imbalance as tou swim underwater.Breathing hard after a hard swim isn't hyperventilating,as long as you are doing so"naturally",in other words,your body is telling you to breath hard.If you continue to breath hard intentionally after the urge is gone,that is hyperventilating and don't do it before underwaters.
No, just playing the odds. But if you listen to Bob Bowman (NBAC) 1 shallow water blackout death is too many. I heard Bowman talk about having to pick up Louis Lowenthal’s gear bag from the pool deck and return it to Louis' parents. There wasn’t a dry eye in the house.
For me it’s less about guys like Chris who know what they’re doing and more about the people who see Chris and try to imitate or beat him.
I enjoy reading how swimmers like Chris train as well as to observe the local superstar high school swimmers in our local USAS swim clubs during their workout sessions.
Self perception and "Common sense" are not always so clear in every circumstance. It is my belief that hypoxic training in swimming is basically not safe and should least be done supervised or observed. I believe for myself that most forms of hypoxic type swimming done when rested that 25 yards or less seems to be a low risk of hypoxia. But from my few experiences attempting multiple repeats, intervals, or longer swims with ongoing restricted breathing via underwater SDKS and/or reduced number of breathers per length, I learned instantly that kind of hypoxic training is very uncomfortable, and there are other higher priority training activities. For me, doing some rested hypoxic training activity of short durations with full recovery (HR under 100) seems manageable at my current age. I also anticipate my "hypoxic" capacity will continue to degrade as I get older. Even with doing fast swim training at close to maximum heart rates, I have learned that I must manage how "hard" and often I repeat the "high" HR efforts.
Since I do most of my training alone and I'm not sure the lifeguards are always that alert (most are high school kids) I do a very limited amount of underwater and hypoxic training. Most of my sdk practice is to mid-pool (10-12 yards) only and usually with a long interval, 45+ sec/25. If I do hypoxic breathing, which I seldom do, it's never more than 1 breath/5 strokes with distance mostly 25's and occasionally 50's. I don't see a lot of value in hypoxic training, at least for my training, and though my backstroke could benefit from a longer underwater pullout I'm not comfortable doing a lot of unsupervised underwater training.
