When is it OK to disallow swims

When I posted the original poll I was not making allowances for cheating.If there was cheating a swim or a meet or whatever should be thrown out.I meant to refer only to good faith swims. Thanks for giving your input, that's exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for to feed into the next Records & Tabulation discussion of this issue (a discussion of how permanent the "final" lists should be). Chris, in your example quoted above, did the national Top Ten recorder receive the falsified measurements? Or did they only have assurances of the fact the pool was measured and was long enough? Because your answer will change my answer. No, in my hypothetical example, she didn't. And in the real world too, she usually doesn't. Most people possibly don't know this, but here goes. Measurements only need to accompany USMS/FINA record applications, not Top 10 submissions. The LMSC (usually the Top 10 Recorder) is supposed to keep those on file. When Mary Beth is processing results she checks the meet facility and checks if the pool length certification is in the national database. If it isn't, she asks the TTR if the pool has been certified. If the pool has a bulkhead she also asks if the bulkhead placement was verified as is required by the rules. Some TTRs send in the measurements in response to these questions but not all do, nor is it required. So my hypothetical situation can certainly happen. Possibly the most unrealistic part of it is that the measurements are "discovered" after the TT lists are official, but I can think of a couple situations where this could happen. One would be a national record that isn't discovered until times are submitted for TT submission. (This happens quite often.) Mary Beth alerts the TTR about the record, and the record application (including the measurements) are submitted to Walt. The deadline for submission of times for records is 90 days after the end of the season, which is roughly about when the "final" lists are published. So Walt might receive the pool measurements and realize they are short after the TT lists are published. Another situation is when the TTR sends the measurements on to MB without realizing they are short. This definitely happens, though I admit that it is less likely to happen after the final lists are published. Realize that things have been changing the last few years in the TT world due to something called the E2EEM (end-to-end event management) project which, among other things, encourages TTRs to upload meet results into the national USMS results database to and use web tools to submit times for TT consideration. Online event sanctioning has also been added to E2EEM. One of the next stages is to tie into pool measurements; at some point -- I am speculating -- I could imagine inputing pool measurements as a required part of E2EEM. It would still be the honor system, of course, but more automated. Possibly -- again, speculation -- times couldn't be submitted for TT consideration or be part of "Current Event Rankings" unless those measurements are in the system. And that's probably more information than any of you wanted to know about Top 10. :-)

When I posted the original poll I was not making allowances for cheating.If there was cheating a swim or a meet or whatever should be thrown out.I meant to refer only to good faith swims. Thanks for giving your input, that's exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for to feed into the next Records & Tabulation discussion of this issue (a discussion of how permanent the "final" lists should be). Chris, in your example quoted above, did the national Top Ten recorder receive the falsified measurements? Or did they only have assurances of the fact the pool was measured and was long enough? Because your answer will change my answer. No, in my hypothetical example, she didn't. And in the real world too, she usually doesn't. Most people possibly don't know this, but here goes. Measurements only need to accompany USMS/FINA record applications, not Top 10 submissions. The LMSC (usually the Top 10 Recorder) is supposed to keep those on file. When Mary Beth is processing results she checks the meet facility and checks if the pool length certification is in the national database. If it isn't, she asks the TTR if the pool has been certified. If the pool has a bulkhead she also asks if the bulkhead placement was verified as is required by the rules. Some TTRs send in the measurements in response to these questions but not all do, nor is it required. So my hypothetical situation can certainly happen. Possibly the most unrealistic part of it is that the measurements are "discovered" after the TT lists are official, but I can think of a couple situations where this could happen. One would be a national record that isn't discovered until times are submitted for TT submission. (This happens quite often.) Mary Beth alerts the TTR about the record, and the record application (including the measurements) are submitted to Walt. The deadline for submission of times for records is 90 days after the end of the season, which is roughly about when the "final" lists are published. So Walt might receive the pool measurements and realize they are short after the TT lists are published. Another situation is when the TTR sends the measurements on to MB without realizing they are short. This definitely happens, though I admit that it is less likely to happen after the final lists are published. Realize that things have been changing the last few years in the TT world due to something called the E2EEM (end-to-end event management) project which, among other things, encourages TTRs to upload meet results into the national USMS results database to and use web tools to submit times for TT consideration. Online event sanctioning has also been added to E2EEM. One of the next stages is to tie into pool measurements; at some point -- I am speculating -- I could imagine inputing pool measurements as a required part of E2EEM. It would still be the honor system, of course, but more automated. Possibly -- again, speculation -- times couldn't be submitted for TT consideration or be part of "Current Event Rankings" unless those measurements are in the system. And that's probably more information than any of you wanted to know about Top 10. :-)