Interesting to confirm yesterday that USMS will not sanction dual meets between clubs...I had heard rumors but now that we were looking into organizing one I'm told we can't (still haven't found out where it says this in the rule book).
Curious why this would be a problem for anyone? Have attached a poll and would also love to hear your thoughts!
Is there some requirement in USMS that all meets must be open to all USMS members? This would be the only reason I can think of that would forbid dual meets.
I don't have my rule book here and don't feel like looking this up in the electronic version. But if there is such a requirement I would think it could be avoided pretty easily. Call the meet a "Dual Meet" of X vs Y but allow anyone to register to swim. Just don't include non-members of X and Y in the scoring between the two clubs.
I believe (but again can't check now) that the meet host has some flexibility in seeding. So maybe you can even make sure that the fastest heats of each event contain only members of X and Y. And make sure that the relays of X and Y are always next to one another so they can square off.
Where did you get the information that dual meets were not allowed? The 2012 Rule Book defines a dual meet as between 2 clubs (xi) and explains scoring (p 26).
Betsy, I seem to remember that there was a VA vs NC dual meet (between LMSCs, not clubs) some years ago. And there was this:
www.usms.org/.../meet.php
(I like the idea of LMSC-level dual meets ever better than club dual meets. Bragging rights!)
I also believe what is causing some confusion is rule 401.2 about eligibility to participate, which does not specifically allow restrictions for 2 clubs.
Rob, I am not sure I understand your statement. Could you elaborate?
An insurance claim was filed (and upheld) at the 2011 Albatross Open.
But generally speaking I think it is rare to see a claim from a meet.
However, as a meet director I'm not about to go with less insurance coverage just because the odds are in my favor there won't be a claim!
For the record, just let me state that despite Jeff Roddin's utter magnificence at running the Albatross meet this year and in year's past, I opted not to file for an Alienation of Affection lawsuit, though god knows I would have been within my rights to do so!
Lordy, what a magnificent fellow he is! But I shan't leave my family for him. No I shan't!
Rob, I am not sure I understand your statement. Could you elaborate?Yes I can, but I’ll send it via email so I don’t inundate Paul’s thread with legislative drivel.
I am wondering why getting a dual meet "sanctioned" would be preferable to getting it "recognized"? It seems to me that the latter would be a lot easier to do, give you more control on who swims, and the times would still count for TT, etc.
Maybe I am missing something here.
I will answer your question in more general terms, for any meet (not just a dual meet).
The advantages of obtaining a sanction instead of a recognition are:
1) More comprehensive insurance coverage for the event. In a sanctioned meet, the swimmers, officials, volunteers, and meet director are all covered by our insurance. This is not the case in a recognized event. See the Insurance Grid on Page 9 of our General Insurance Information.
2) Times swum in a sanctioned meet can be considered for FINA Top10 and FINA world records. Times swum in a recognized meet cannot be considered for FINA Top10 and world records (but they can be considered for USMS Top10 and records).
Anna Lea, you are a treasure! Pith and readability!
As long as you mention these two items, one additional general question and a general observation.
The question: How often is USMS insurance actually used to pay claims, and what are the most common claims? Swimmers slipping and falling in locker rooms? Starters developing tinnitus after years of shooting blanks (in yesteryear) and blasting beeping horns (today)? Cerebral vascular events provoked by having Top 10 times from Canadian Nationals failing to count for USMS TT consideration?
Really, I am curious about this. Lots of different organizations have insurance, but in my experience, I have never seen anyone make a claim and/or get paid. On a completely separate front, what would you say is the easiest way to make a fraudulent claim and not get caught? Maybe even just get paid a small settlement to "go away"? Again, this is purely intellectual curiosity and not a request for some sort of "how-to" manual, though if you did happen to have one, could you send me a copy?
The observation: Assuming Paul's proposed dual meet is in a SCY venue, FINA TT/Records don't apply anyway. And from what I have managed to glean over the years from Paul's occasional libertarian-minded postings, the idea that anybody might benefit from insurance (which is as close to socialist collectivism as our corporate overlords will ever venture) seems to me a likely anathema to Paul's philosophical approach.
Thus I would venture to suggest he would probably be better off going for a recognition that a sanction. Hold it in a yards pool where the rest of the world could care less about the results. And hold it without any kind of namby pamby insurance coverage, and let Darwinian forces hold sway.
An insurance claim was filed (and upheld) at the 2011 Albatross Open.
But generally speaking I think it is rare to see a claim from a meet.
However, as a meet director I'm not about to go with less insurance coverage just because the odds are in my favor there won't be a claim!
I am wondering why getting a dual meet "sanctioned" would be preferable to getting it "recognized"?
I will answer your question in more general terms, for any meet (not just a dual meet).
The advantages of obtaining a sanction instead of a recognition are:
1) More comprehensive insurance coverage for the event. In a sanctioned meet, the swimmers, officials, volunteers, and meet director are all covered by our insurance. This is not the case for some of those categories in a recognized event. See the Insurance Grid on Page 9 of our General Insurance Information.
2) Times swum in a sanctioned meet can be considered for FINA Top10 and FINA world records. Times swum in a recognized meet cannot be considered for FINA Top10 and world records (but they can be considered for USMS Top10 and records).
