2012 Div 1 NCAAs

Can someone explain what Invited means? Have the qualifying times not kept up with the suit change times, forcing the meet officials to allow more swimmers in who did not make the official standards? Jim, The rules would confound a talmudic scholar. Someone like Skip Thompson may have some understanding. It revolves around the "A" standard (which only a few swimmers per event achieve) and the much more lenient "B" standard. Maybe 80 or 90 swimmers achieve the "B" standard but there is an invited cutoff number (this year between 17 and 18 for men and 30 for women) of the top "B" qualifiers. It really becomes confusing when relays are taken into consideration. If you qualify on a relay (i.e. invited) you can swim any event in which you achieved the "B" standard even if you're ranked 90th. This really hoses an outstanding swimmer from a weaker team who had the 18th top time but no relay to swim on. No relay, no invite. To add more confusion, teams are limited to the total number of athletes they can bring. Actually, there are expetions to this rule also. If you really want to immerse yourself in the arcane check this out: forum.collegeswimming.com/viewtopic.php

Jim, The rules would confound a talmudic scholar. Someone like Skip Thompson may have some understanding. It revolves around the "A" standard (which only a few swimmers per event achieve) and the much more lenient "B" standard. Maybe 80 or 90 swimmers achieve the "B" standard but there is an invited cutoff number (this year between 17 and 18 for men and 30 for women) of the top "B" qualifiers. It really becomes confusing when relays are taken into consideration. If you qualify on a relay (i.e. invited) you can swim any event in which you achieved the "B" standard even if you're ranked 90th. This really hoses an outstanding swimmer from a weaker team who had the 18th top time but no relay to swim on. No relay, no invite. To add more confusion, teams are limited to the total number of athletes they can bring. Actually, there are expetions to this rule also. If you really want to immerse yourself in the arcane check this out: forum.collegeswimming.com/viewtopic.php Back in the day, this is the exact reason why I enjoyed swimming college nationals in the NAIA division. You didn't have to be a mathematics/statistician/whatever to figure out who was in the meet. Those that qualified, went. At least I believe so. Probably because the sheer numbers of qualifiers/swimmers was much less that the NCAA too.

NJCAA's are this weekend. This is rather impressive; an NJCAA record leadoff and an NJCAA record relay. Also, @ 1:17.70, these guys would be #8 on the D1 psych sheet! Event 8 Men 200 Yard Freestyle Relay ================================================================================== NJCAA: 1:18.78 2009 , Indian River SC E Walling, K Wyman, N Hein, N Schwartz School Seed Finals Points ================================================================================== 1 Indian River Sta 'A' 1:23.11 1:17.70 64 1) Tandy, Bradley 20 2) Mosley, Logan 20 3) Flores, Luis 17 4) Weir, Caleb 20 19.06 38.86 (19.80) 58.36 (19.50) 1:17.70 (19.34)

The rules would confound a talmudic scholar...The short answer is that NCAA D1 invites 270 men and 322 women to the NCAA championship meet, D2 and D3 have a few more invitees. 35 men’s divers (41 women’s), any swimmer with an “A” time, the top 16 in every individual event and top 12 relays are guaranteed spots. At this point Rich’s Talmudic scholars start “adding rows” to get to 270-men and 322-women.

2012 NCAA Division I Men's Championships 03/22/2012 to 03/24/2012 SCY 2012 DI Men - Psych Sheet 2012 DI Men - Invited Swimmers By Team 2012 NCAA Division I Women's Championships 3/15/2012 to 3/17/2012 SCY 2012 NCAA Division I Women's Championships - 3/15/2012 to 3/17/2012 SCY Psych Sheet updated Mon 3/5/12 Invited Swimmers by team From USA Swimming's NCAA info

The short answer is that NCAA D1 invites 270 men and 322 women to the NCAA championship meet, D2 and D3 have a few more invitees. 35 men’s divers (41 women’s), any swimmer with an “A” time, the top 16 in every individual event and top 12 relays are guaranteed spots. At this point Rich’s Talmudic scholars start “adding rows” to get to 270-men and 322-women. What accounts for the gender discrepancy in invitees? Is it a reflection of there being more women's swimming programs? Or did fewer women make the cut? Or something else?

What accounts for the gender discrepancy in invitees? Is it a reflection of there being more women's swimming programs? Or did fewer women make the cut? Or something else? The figure of 270 men and 322 Women has been around since 2006. But in the past 6 years, the NCAA never invites this amount. This year its 235 Men from 42 teams and 281 women from 64 teams. I believe you are right on the first point about the greater number for the Women being that there are more Women College Swimming programs. This year more Women made the cut than Men but you could figure it out by each event by taking the 30 Women invitees divided by the total amount of Women making the B cut. In some events its up to 72 swimmers and it can be as low as 33 swimmers as is the case of the 1650 Free. All relays for Women are restricted to 15 this year according to the psych sheets. It appears that in the Men's events, 17 swimmers will be invited per event and again its different by event. For example, the 50 Free has 17 invited swimmers divided by 82 swimmers that ended the B cut for a % lower than 25%. I have a feeling a lot more swimmers will swim this event because if they are part of the relay invitation, then they will swim this event. You will see larger numbers in the 100 Free, 200 Free, and the 100 Back if a swimmer is committed to a relay in the entry. An event like the 400 IM that has 17 invited swimmers out of 28 that made the B cut has one of the largest % of men invited by event. All relays for Men are restricted to 12 except the 200 Medley Relay at 13 because of a tie between Tennessee and Louisville for the 12 place seed time. The bottom line in all this is that the NCAA Division 1 meet does not want to have more than 5 to 6 heats of swimmers. Now Rich had mentioned that there is kind of a discrimination if you are not part of a relay but have say the 20th time and you are not invited to the meet. This statement is true to a certain extent but in some cases would not be true if a swimmer had a significantly slower time than others on the team, you would be committed to swimming this person in a relay and you might not make top 8 because of this. The times are so close in both the 100 Free and 200 Free that a person would have to be in the running in the event otherwise you could become a casualty of not qualifying top 8 or not even top 16 in the relay event. For both NCAA meets, if you qualify as a relay swimmer, you can swim any event that you make a B time standard cutoff time. But you must swim that relay that the team committed you to or you will not be permitted to swim the other events. You are only committed to swim the prelims of that event. For most of the big schools, I think they want to maximize the talent they bring and with the cap of 18 swimmers, I don't think there is more than 4 to 5 swimmers per team because you do not want to get in a situation where you have to use these swimmers when you have swimmers on your roster that made either an A or B cut and with relays being double the points, a coach is not going to risk that. I would have to honestly say that the NCAA rules do favor the big, successful, college programs and this is probably one of the reasons why swimmers choose to be with these programs. Since 1985, on the Men side, if you take Michigan, Cal, and Arizona out of the NCAA picture, you have 3 schools that have won the championship and those are Texas with 9, Auburn with 8, and Stanford with 7. On the Women's side you have 4 schools in 28 years that have won the majority of the championships with Stanford at 8, Texas at 7, Auburn at 5, Georgia at 4, Florida at 2, and Southern Cal and California at one each. Of course type of school, coach, facilities, and swimming history are the other reasons.

This year more Women made the cut than Men... ...Now Rich had mentioned that there is kind of a discrimination if you are not part of a relay but have say the 20th time and you are not invited to the meet. This statement is true to a certain extent but in some cases would not be true if a swimmer had a significantly slower time than others on the team, you would be committed to swimming this person in a relay and you might not make top 8 because of this. The times are so close in both the 100 Free and 200 Free that a person would have to be in the running in the event otherwise you could become a casualty of not qualifying top 8 or not even top 16 in the relay event. For both NCAA meets, if you qualify as a relay swimmer, you can swim any event that you make a B time standard cutoff time. But you must swim that relay that the team committed you to or you will not be permitted to swim the other events. You are only committed to swim the prelims of that event. For most of the big schools, I think they want to maximize the talent they bring and with the cap of 18 swimmers, I don't think there is more than 4 to 5 swimmers per team because you do not want to get in a situation where you have to use these swimmers when you have swimmers on your roster that made either an A or B cut and with relays being double the points, a coach is not going to risk that.... Skip, you never cease to amaze me with your knowledge of swimming minutiae, history, and lore. Question 1: does the fact that women appear to have qualified at higher rates then men support my contention that changes in FINA legal swimwear has affected men's times more deleteriously than women's? And if so, could you please communicate to dearest Leslie just how much things have changed for us fellows--and how little they have changed for the womenfolk? Question 2: Given your expertise in deciphering NCAA regulations, I was hoping you might deconstruct a few quotes from the Talmud that I find puzzling. Beware of too much laughter, for it deadens the mind and produces oblivion. www.quotationspage.com/.../icon_blank.gif The TalmudInstinctively, I sense this is true. But why then are there so many great Jewish comedians? Is this a prophetic smackdown of Seinfeld, Louie, and Curb Your Enthusiasm? Why would God do such a thing to the Chosen People?Until a child is one year old it is incapable of sin. www.quotationspage.com/.../icon_blank.gif The TalmudIs there some sort of book end to this? I am about to enter my first FINA 60-64 age group competition, God be willing and I do not ruin myself with laughter's oblivion before then. I am FINA-Three Score. Surely, as one approaches the years of ones dotage, there comes a time when his cognitive and moral capacities decline--bell-shaped curve-like--back towards the capacities of his toddler years. When, I ask you, will I once again be incapable of sin? (It cannot happen too soon!) Thanks, Skip! And Rich, please feel free to contribute your own Talmudic insights to these two puzzling passages.

Whoever thinks up NCAA rules must be first cousin to those who write the tax code. This makes me wonder if NCAA can get anything right. They have the BCS bowl-game mess that almost nobody likes. Then there is the canceling of mens sports in the name of title IX. (It's like they are trying to make us all hate what was inherently a very good idea that was tremendously beneficial to women, women's sports, public health, and probably until recently beneficial to mens sports as well.) Then there are contrived rules about "professionalism" that prevent college kids from having jobs in the summer doing the one thing that they are best qualified to do, and numerous other ludicrous consequences. ...Well I guess the NCAA basketball tournament selection, while controversial, does result in a tournament that is widely enjoyed. I guess the problem with NCAA sports stems from the same root as the problems in politics: $

Skip, you never cease to amaze me with your knowledge of swimming minutiae, history, and lore. Question 1: does the fact that women appear to have qualified at higher rates then men support my contention that changes in FINA legal swimwear has affected men's times more deleteriously than women's? And if so, could you please communicate to dearest Leslie just how much things have changed for us fellows--and how little they have changed for the womenfolk? Skip is amazing. :dedhorse: I highly doubt that even potential male NCAA qualifiers have noticed or advanced this thesis, Jimby ... And there is one way that males can drop more time at taper than women -- shaving. Shaving makes virtually no difference for women and a huge difference for men. :-P If I can swim faster now than I did with tech suits, so can you. You just may have to add some HIT yards to the slow il garbagio.