I'd be interested to see whether the swims at the Canadian Championships are allowed into our Top Ten. Diann Uustal set a world record there, which she has since broken, but it would seem odd to have a world record recognized by FINA yet not be eligible for our Top Ten. There was also a relay from our MESC contingent that would have made it in our Top Ten.
Regardless of how it plays out, though, I have to second Jack Martin's senitment about what a great place Montreal is for a big meet. I love it up there.:canada:
I'd be interested to see whether the swims at the Canadian Championships are allowed into our Top Ten. Diann Uustal set a world record there, which she has since broken, but it would seem odd to have a world record recognized by FINA yet not be eligible for our Top Ten. There was also a relay from our MESC contingent that would have made it in our Top Ten.
Regardless of how it plays out, though, I have to second Jack Martin's senitment about what a great place Montreal is for a big meet. I love it up there.:canada:
They should be...my AWESOME swims showed up in my results...Good lait!
I swam at that meet and it was well run ... I doubt that the meet directors did anything wrong ... I can't imagine what the problem is.:canada:
Here's a guess:
When you swim a meet in the US, the results are automatically (in the sense that you don't have to take any particular action yourself) submitted to the Top Ten recorder for the LMSC, are automatically forwarded to USMS, and automatically appear in the Top Ten lists. Something like that.
But when you swim a meet in Canada, or any other country, it's not automatic. Why would the Canadians submit meet results to an LMSC Top Ten recorder? My guess is that for foreign meets, the USMS Top Ten system does not work automatically.
I know for sure, from other sources, that if you break a USMS record in a non-US meet, the record submission forms are not automatically submitted to USMS (*). It is the swimmer's responsibility to engage the meet officials, provide them with the appropriate USMS forms, and encourage them to submit the time & other needed documentation to USMS. My guess is that something similar is happening here.
(*) It may be automatic for the FINA World Championships, I dunno. It certainly is not automatic for, say, a random local meet somewhere in France.
I doubt that the meet directors did anything wrong ... :canada:
Me too! :canada:
When you swim a meet in the US, the results are automatically (in the sense that you don't have to take any particular action yourself) submitted to the Top Ten recorder for the LMSC, are automatically forwarded to USMS, and automatically appear in the Top Ten lists. Something like that.
Almost true. It is supposed to be automatic for USMS-sanctioned meets, though like any system based largely on volunteers it is not infallible. Meets in the US that are Recognized are not automatic, if you swim in such a meet then you are supposed to alert the TTR of your LMSC. You might also need to collect some pool measurements. This is especially true of USA-S meets, which are automatically Recognized by USMS. But obviously TTRs can't spend all their time combing through the results of such meets on the off chance that a USMS member (whom they may not recognize anyway) competed.
But when you swim a meet in Canada, or any other country, it's not automatic. Why would the Canadians submit meet results to an LMSC Top Ten recorder? My guess is that for foreign meets, the USMS Top Ten system does not work automatically.
Like USA-S meets, meets that are sanctioned by a FINA-member body are automatically Recognized by USMS. But again -- and for the same reason -- you have to alert the TTR of your LMSC.
Some large international meets that have many USMS members (eg, FINA masters World Champs) might be submitted by a single person, rather than piecemeal by the TTRs of all the LMSCs represented in the meet. It isn't always an easy task, since there is no guarantee that the meet results will be in a format compatible with our results system (eg, a Meet Manager file). And you have to separate the USMS members from the non-members.
In the case of the Canadian meet, this is what happened. Jim Matysek helpfully uploaded the results to the national results database, which is why the swims appear in the event rankings. But since no TTR uploaded the results, it slipped through the cracks: no one thought to submit it for TT consideration with all their other meets. That is the reason it wasn't in the preliminary TT and it is a fixable problem (BUT see below for another possible problem).
I know for sure, from other sources, that if you break a USMS record in a non-US meet, the record submission forms are not automatically submitted to USMS. It is the swimmer's responsibility to engage the meet officials, provide them with the appropriate USMS forms, and encourage them to submit the time & other needed documentation to USMS. My guess is that something similar is happening here.
Yes, that is exactly correct, the swimmer has a lot of responsibility in Recognized meets, including the responsibility to collect pool measurements if necessary. USMS rules for TT consideration require that bulkhead placement be verified before the meet and after each session.
In this case, I believe the meet director refused to do the measurements:
U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums - View Single Post - Canadian Masters Swimming Championships 2011
This is not at all unusual for international masters meets, from my (limited) experience. Most facilities have been certified for the proper length, but bulkhead placement is not verified. Whenever a swimmer from my LMSC asks about an international meet, I tell them that their best bet is to go to meets that are run wall-to-wall.
FINA requirements for records and TT are apparently not as strict: bulkhead placement does not have to be verified. So yes, you can theoretically have a situation where a USMS member sets world records and those swims are not eligible for USMS top ten.
That may be what happens here, we are looking into it.
I swam at that meet and it was well run, comparable to US Nationals. Montreal will host the Worlds in 2014. I doubt that the meet directors did anything wrong. Canadians have National records too and set many of them during this particular meet. I can't imagine what the problem is.:canada:
A meet host's responsibility, besides offering a well organized event, includes abiding by its own rules and those of FINA. Sounds like they did this. You can't expect them to know and follow USMS rules that are more strict than FINA's.
Is their any thought that USMS may change its more stringent requirements? It appears from That Guy's prior post that you've at least talked about the issue. I suppose the same thing could happen at Worlds in Italy this summer.
I suppose the same thing could happen at Worlds in Italy this summer.
The same thing might have happened already with Pan Ams last fall:
www.usms.org/.../meet.php
Was this meet submitted for Top Ten consideration?
The same thing might have happened already with Pan Ams last fall:
www.usms.org/.../meet.php
Was this meet submitted for Top Ten consideration?
That meet is part of the current LCM season, TT submissions aren't due until Oct 20, 2012. I have no idea if there was a bulkhead or what kind of measurements were taken.
Is their any thought that USMS may change its more stringent requirements? It appears from That Guy's prior post that you've at least talked about the issue. I suppose the same thing could happen at Worlds in Italy this summer.
The Records & Tabulation Committee will be talking about it, sure. But the most we could do -- and it depends on the committee's willingness of course -- is propose a rule change. The Rules Committee then gets it and then votes whether or not to recommend adoption; they might also also make amendments (substantial or otherwise) and recommend whether or not to adopt the amended version. The House of Delegates then votes on the proposed rule(s). If the Rules Committee recommends adoption, then a simple majority passes the rule; if not, the bar is higher (I can't remember what...maybe two-thirds majority?).
Of course, LMSCs can also propose rule changes and submit them to the Rules Committee, it isn't as if one has to wait for Records and Tabulation. The Rules Committee might ask our opinion of any proposals that affect our "domain" and might take that opinion into consideration.
I wasn't at the Convention when they passed the current version of the rule so I don't know anything of the discussion at the time or the legislative history, such as it is.
Still no answer concerning the reason for not counting Top 10 times swum at Canadian Natioinals. Can anyone enlighten me?
U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums - View Single Post - Preliminary Top 10 Listings Available for SCM 2011
