Do distance swimmers spend less time w/kicking workouts

The difference is that for most masters swimmers, it is built into the model that we don't get to do all the fun stuff - kicking, 15 x 100's, hours in the weightroom, etc that we would LIKE to do as if we had all the time in the world. I think, especially for focused swimmers - meaning, those targeting and being very specific about what they are training for - like you could write down as your mission statement, then you are also having to make choices in what you do, and also what you leave off - rather than eliminate, because it's not that you eliminate kicking, it's that if you do 15 100's, you simply won't have enough hours in the training time to do kicking over say, a mid or long D set, since perhaps the conditioning element is more important. I don't think people kick less 'cause they don't need it - everyone needs it, it is simply that they need or want to do something else - and emphasis is on the latter - since we do this for fun - and maybe it's more fun and more meaningful to do 15 x 100's. I agree 100% that doing 100 sets on an agressive interval and doing them WELL is a great set. I love it! For someone else, not me! See, this is what I mean! Everyone has to pick and chose in masters. (Yet there will also be a rotating group of those that can do it all, even in masters.) Next i'd like to address recovery. We've heard this ad naseum but it is really, really, really hard to do! If the mirror image of training is the recovery portion, how do you know what is the right Recovery Workout or Recovery Period for YOU? (That's a rhetorical question). If we are all training DIFFERENTLY, as you can clearly see from the Forts to Knelson to Chris Stevenson to all the other workouts posted, then it should follow that we don't or shouldn't RECOVERY TRAIN the same, either. I think that is the real key. We can measure training in so many ways, from time to yardage, etc, but measuring the right recovery is very, very difficult. What's the right balance? (Another rhetorical question). So back to the thread - it's not that D swimmers need less kicking than anyone else, whether it's a 2 or 6 beat don't mean you would train less kick as a 2 beater - it's just that with scarce resources (ie, your time), you have to pick & chose! The question I would have as a D swimmer or any swimmer is, and not just limited to kicking, is what should I be doing more of, or differently, in order to swim faster? What will make the biggest incremental difference? And......IS IT WORTH IT? DO I WANT TO GO THAT STEP? OR AM I GOING TO MAKE THE CONSCIOUS CHOICE TO NOT DO XYZ 'CAUSE IT'S JUST NOT WORTH IT? And I have answered yes and no to that question when posed on different events. 50 free - yes, always yes. Every other event - sometimes yes, often no.

No. Chris, Paul, Rob are ALL correct -- modern distance swimmers kick hard and a strong 6 beat kick is almost required for success these days. One of the few exceptions on the scene now is Ryan Cochrane of Canada, who swims more of an 'old school' stroke. This old fart was trained in the 70s and 80s where we believed things about freestyle and distance swimming that have been since debunked, such as: Look forward and have the water line just above your goggles, and Distance swimmers can only 2 beat kick As an even older fart, I trained in the '60s with a 6-beat kick throughout the distance events.

There's alot of drills that emphasize the kick yet also stress other aspects such as balance and streamline. One such drill is the streamline flutter kick barrel roll drill (SFKBRD). Start off flutter kicking with arms at fwd streamline. Then, to take a breath you just roll on to your back (inhale), keep rolling to return to the belly. I do 25M with 4 CCW rolls then return going CW. These blast the legs since it's your sole propulsion but also teach streamline roll, balance, and rhythm. One rhetorical question to add, if a drop dead distance swimmer was forced to swim 25M AFAP (or else), would he 2-beat kick it?

I think the answer is "not necessarily" and I agree with chowmi's assessment. If distance swimmers are doing less distance kicking in practice it's probably because they are spending more time on long aerobic sets, but that isn't always the case. Coaches also tend to vary quite a bit on kicking. I've had some coaches who have kick sets in every workout and some that rarely have kick sets. My current coach only puts kick sets in the secondary workouts, so unless you're doing doubles you'll virtually never do a kick set.

I think the answer is "not necessarily" and I agree with chowmi's assessment. If distance swimmers are doing less distance kicking in practice it's probably because they are spending more time on long aerobic sets, True. But at some point perhaps a stroke overall is a comparatively better use of your time than more long conditioning sets.

No firm answers from anyone yet. Just speculation. As a sprinter and SDK specialist, I spend approx 40-50% of my workouts kicking. I'm quite sure no D master swimmer does this. I'm not sure of the relevance of asking for someone who is TT in both D and sprints when the OP was asking for a comparative analysis of the two disciplines.

As a sprinter and SDK specialist, I spend approx 40-50% of my workouts kicking. I'm quite sure no D master swimmer does this. But most sprinters probably don't either. You're an anomaly! It's been my observation that most masters swimmers don't like kick sets and many that do kick use it as recovery. Social kicks, etc. I haven't really noticed a sprint/distance dichotomy, but I think a lot of masters teams train at least middle distance so it's possible the lack of kicking is related to the non-sprint mindset overall...if that makes sense.

But most sprinters probably don't either. You're an anomaly! It's been my observation that most masters swimmers don't like kick sets and many that do kick use it as recovery. Social kicks, etc. I haven't really noticed a sprint/distance dichotomy, but I think a lot of masters teams train at least middle distance so it's possible the lack of kicking is related to the non-sprint mindset overall...if that makes sense. Makes sense. I'm sure there are some sprinters training with masters groups with a little-kicking-mid-D mindset. But some of them may modify workouts (chowmi, Ande). And some train alone or with a training partner so they can customize workouts and do true race pace work (Rich Abrahams, Jim Corbeau). And there would likely be less shoulder pain and angst if, in general, masters kicked more.

Michelle, you've summed up masters swimming very well to me. Training principles designed for and tested on elite and aspiring elite swimmers are interesting but don't equally apply to us. I've been told, for example, that we shoudl be doing 30% of our work on kick. Whether you agree with that number or not, if you're training 4 hours + per day, then you can afford to to everything that might help your performance (as long as you get the rest and nutrition part right too). If you train for 3 hours a week, spending chunks of time on kick means spending less on something else so we need to make our own judgements about the relative value of all possible choices.

I think the answer is "not necessarily" and I agree with chowmi's assessment. If distance swimmers are doing less distance kicking in practice it's probably because they are spending more time on long aerobic sets, but that isn't always the case. Coaches also tend to vary quite a bit on kicking. I've had some coaches who have kick sets in every workout and some that rarely have kick sets. My current coach only puts kick sets in the secondary workouts, so unless you're doing doubles you'll virtually never do a kick set. I wanna join your team