Freestyle stroke linear or curved path?

I can't possibly believe that hydrodynamic lift can be a significant component of propulsion. The only part of the arm that can possibly generate lift would be the hand. Maximizing lift forces would entail holding the hand in a very precise shape and at a very precise angle of attack with respect to fluid flow throughout the stroke. This is probably impossible. And, if even if we could, I would be surprised if the lift force one could generate would compare favorably to simple drag. Are there any real studies or computer simulations around that have tested this? Doc Councilman came up with the idea based on viewing the pulls of swimmers at the time(see "The Science of Swimming.) As I said ,that is no longer well accepted.

Look at the slow-mo's here: Cesar Cielo BRASIL (46.91) 100 m livre new world record Roma 2009 - YouTube it doesn't look like an S to me, so I'll go with the straight arm group.

I guess the bio-mechanics is of paramount importance here. While a straight pull might be best if you had a machine driving a paddle with motors the case could be very different when you consider muscles driving multiple joints with multiple degrees of freedom as our arms. The best way I can visualize this in order to think about it is to think about what you do to get out of the pool. Does anyone extend their arms straight out (directly in front of you) and try to push out of the pool that way? No. You get your chest as close to the wall as you can and push up with your arms close to your body. Part of this is simple mechanics. If you tried option #1 you couldn't possibly apply enough force to lift yourself. Even if you could (gymnast?) you wouldn't get out of the pool. Option #2 makes better use of the various levels available in our arm to get us out of the pool without herculean effort. So, the question might be: What is the best path to follow during the pull stroke to maximize both the hydrodynamic efficiency for propulsion AND the bio-mechanical ability to generate maximum force and speed? Surely someone has had to have studied this. Any papers out there?

The old paradigm was that lift((sculling) was more important than drag,hence the S pattern stroke.With the ascendance of the drag theory(push back to go forward) the curved path seems to be disappearing. I can't possibly believe that hydrodynamic lift can be a significant component of propulsion. The only part of the arm that can possibly generate lift would be the hand. Maximizing lift forces would entail holding the hand in a very precise shape and at a very precise angle of attack with respect to fluid flow throughout the stroke. This is probably impossible. And, if even if we could, I would be surprised if the lift force one could generate would compare favorably to simple drag. Are there any real studies or computer simulations around that have tested this?

Hi elbow is fine if the body roll is there (shoulder roll) if you just get the elbows high without the proper roll injury is a definite.

Funny... I feel that doing a high elbow recovery puts less strain on my shoulders because of the way that my hand comes out of the water. When my shoulder starts to bother me, I focus on having a high elbow and it almost always helps. I do exactly the same. I even swim faster when I do so, but maybe it's just because the pain\fear are gone.

Here's a link to a Sun Yang video that shows his armpull path pretty well: 2011世界游泳锦标赛男子1500米自由泳决赛-2 - YouTube My takeaways are that he really does an early bent-arm grab; and the forearm rotates fairly horizontal at mid-pull, when there is a subtle hand traverse toward the body's centerline. So that the overall pull path is neither straight, nor S, but a slight sweeping arc, like the rail outline to a big-wave surfboard. Which is about as long as Sun Yang is, when he's stretched out.

I am a firm believer that his theory still stands. The reason it is no longer a "S" stroke is because we are now rolling more and the "S" has now become an "I" stroke. If the body did not roll as it does now you would have to use a "S" in order not to injure yourself.

I had to re-watch the Phelps multi-camera angle on youtube. While a straight-line pull might be theoretically best, I think we're just not as good at applying force with our arms directly underneath us. Phelps does the first part of his freestyle pull a bit wider, and the pull ends up under his body. It does look like an S to be honest, just not an exaggerated one.

It seems to me that in order to keep the hand anchored in the same place there has to be forearm pitch and angle changes. If you get to a catch position and simply rotate holding that EXACT position your rotation will send the hand laterally. For me to anchor my hand my elbow gets a little wider and the angle between upper and lower arm gets smaller. I also adjust my hand and forearm pitch. I think if anyone simulates that pulling him or herself past a solid object you see the same thing. So I think the curve one sees in some swimmers is an attempt to keep the pressure straight back.