The Butterfly Lane

To work on the "kick up," do you think it's helpful to kick while on your back (so that the "kick up" is a "kick down")? Do you think in general dolphin kicking on your back is a good way to train for fly kicking? I ask because a lot of people on my team kick on their back for fly kick, but it always seems a bit strange to me. So, I'm wondering now if there is a good reason for it, other than wanting more access to oxygen. I agree that kicking on your back can help with the up kick. It is also a practical issue - I typically do either a reverse catch up drill on my tummy (free drill) or I kick on my back with fins during pull sets. I can do the set less one 50 per 200 (so a 150 to their 200) and it's a good interval for me without disrupting the lane or getting lapped. I am not a very strong fly kicker. Solid free kicker, but never have been for fly. But there is my own answer - lowest hanging fruit!! Pick something really do-able and don't worry that it's too little or different. Here's what I did last Monday on my own! 400 warm up 200 easy kick with board 100 kick without board 8 x 25 with shoes, snorkel, board in front and/or no board 4 free 2 fly 2 on back 8 x 25 fast feet freestyle board in front - fast as you can go (timewise) and faster feet than you can count (ie, imagine watching yourself kick. if you can see your feet, you are moving them too slow) true 50 race pace feet. 8 x 25 with fins free and fly underwater no breath 8 x 25 with fins back and fly underwater at least to the opposite flag 3 x 150 100 kick on all sides/50 free easy swim 50 easy Passed on my 4 x vertical kicks due to slightly overtired core from shoes on back today. Better to pass on it than throw out my back. Lots of rest; this took me 1 hour 10 minutes. So you see, I don't do much! But I do this type of kicking EVERY WEEK, ONCE a week. It's sustainable. Not being a gifted fly kicker, the 2 things I work on most is to get lift and to not initiate the kick from the knees when I am tired. You can do it! Just set some sets down on paper, and go do them! Yeah!

8 x 25 with shoes! I like that. I'm going to get some of my old worn out tennis shoes and give it a shot one day. :)

I'm going to be a contrary voice in two ways. (1) I hate kicking fly on my back (at least, on the surface). Maybe it is okay as a drill to work on the up-kick. The problem is that kicking fly on the surface robs you of much of your power in the down-kick (er, that would be the up-kick if you are on your back). You are good at making a lot of waves but not it isn't translating as effectively to forward propulsion. To do a good dolphin kick, lead with (and focus on) what your hips are doing rather than your legs. They will follow the hips. You want to work on your up-beat but don't want to worry about lack of oxygen? Do dolphin with a kickboard but be sure to keep your feet below the water: they should never break the surface. Concentrate on working the kick both ways. You will get an excellent workout for your legs and core and also be working on a good kick. Nowadays coaches often dismiss this approach. "Body position all wrong" and such. But how many races are there where you do dolphin kick on your back on the surface? None. By the way, in college I kicked exclusively with a kickboard, usually dolphin kick. Nowadays I do maybe 30-40% of my kicking with a board. But I was a much faster kicker in college than I am now. Obviously I was younger, but I think the "kickboard-only" approach didn't hurt as much as many would think. (2) As long as you can keep your form (and that's a big thing), do as much butterfly as you want. There is no other stroke IMO that gives you as much of a workout in a given amount of time. (Well, maybe breaststroke but that's not a real stroke.) Thanks for the input - I am a rubbish kicker on all strokes and only since joining the forums here have been informed that fly is very kick dominated! I actually find it more core-dominated in that if I get a good undulation, the hips in the right place and then the legs follow naturally. Or perhaps I am harking back to learning it in the 1980s? Either way I never use a kickboard on fly and do most of my kicking on my side. I find with the board I get a lot of pressure on my lower back. I'm working on the principle right now that if you're training for the 200 free, you do lots of free sets of different lengths at different speeds, while still keeping a good stroke. So if I want to do a 200 fly, then surely a similar approach would work:dunno: OK so I'm not jumping into doing 4 x 200 fly descending next week, which would be very easy to do on freestyle, but I've swum many more yards free than I have fly in my lifetime. I guess my fly just needs to catch up!

it is not difficult to swim fly in a crowded lane make fists and swing your arms hard and fast on your recovery after a few hits you're likely to teach the crowd to stay out of your way :lmao: As for you, Chris, your comment about breaststroke deserves a :mooning: and a :thhbbb:. :D Cheers! :chug:

Great posts! Any other advice on developing the up kick? I think this is probably the best kept secret in fly. Perhaps we need an 'Up Kick' thread.

I'm going to be a contrary voice in two ways. (1) I hate kicking fly on my back (at least, on the surface). Maybe it is okay as a drill to work on the up-kick. The problem is that kicking fly on the surface robs you of much of your power in the down-kick (er, that would be the up-kick if you are on your back). You are good at making a lot of waves but not it isn't translating as effectively to forward propulsion. To do a good dolphin kick, lead with (and focus on) what your hips are doing rather than your legs. They will follow the hips. You want to work on your up-beat but don't want to worry about lack of oxygen? Do dolphin with a kickboard but be sure to keep your feet below the water: they should never break the surface. Concentrate on working the kick both ways. You will get an excellent workout for your legs and core and also be working on a good kick. Nowadays coaches often dismiss this approach. "Body position all wrong" and such. But how many races are there where you do dolphin kick on your back on the surface? None. By the way, in college I kicked exclusively with a kickboard, usually dolphin kick. Nowadays I do maybe 30-40% of my kicking with a board. But I was a much faster kicker in college than I am now. Obviously I was younger, but I think the "kickboard-only" approach didn't hurt as much as many would think. (2) As long as you can keep your form (and that's a big thing), do as much butterfly as you want. There is no other stroke IMO that gives you as much of a workout in a given amount of time. (Well, maybe breaststroke but that's not a real stroke.) People talk about how difficult it is to swim fly in a crowded lane. True to a point, but backstroke and breaststroke are even harder: in back you can't see when you are running over people, and unless you are very fast breaststroker (never something I've been accused of) then you'll slow people down. So if conditions are too crowded for me to get in a good freestyle workout, I'll switch to fly and be careful not to hit anyone.

(1) I hate kicking fly on my back (at least, on the surface). Maybe it is okay as a drill to work on the up-kick. The problem is that kicking fly on the surface robs you of much of your power in the down-kick (er, that would be the up-kick if you are on your back). You are good at making a lot of waves but not it isn't translating as effectively to forward propulsion. To do a good dolphin kick, lead with (and focus on) what your hips are doing rather than your legs. They will follow the hips. You want to work on your up-beat but don't want to worry about lack of oxygen? Do dolphin with a kickboard but be sure to keep your feet below the water: they should never break the surface. Concentrate on working the kick both ways. You will get an excellent workout for your legs and core and also be working on a good kick. Nowadays coaches often dismiss this approach. "Body position all wrong" and such. But how many races are there where you do dolphin kick on your back on the surface? None. By the way, in college I kicked exclusively with a kickboard, usually dolphin kick. Nowadays I do maybe 30-40% of my kicking with a board. But I was a much faster kicker in college than I am now. Obviously I was younger, but I think the "kickboard-only" approach didn't hurt as much as many would think. Making a lot of waves without translating into propulsion -- that's exactly how I feel when I dolphin kick on my back. I think I'm going to try the underwater kick with a board and see if that feels more effective. Thanks to everyone for their comments on this question -- gives me lots of things to try and think about.

it is not difficult to swim fly in a crowded lane make fists and swing your arms hard and fast on your recovery after a few hits you're likely to teach the crowd to stay out of your way but I really look for gaps when I can do a 25 or a 50 If I feel like I'm about to smack someone, I take a 1 arm stroke then resume with 2 when the lane is clear I don't swim much fly in practice I do a lot of freestyle and no board dolphin kicking.

Great job! When I said "slowly increase" I meant week-by-week, month-by-month, or even year-by-year. But it does sound like you've been building a base. I guess we need to wait and see if you post "owwwwwwwwwww" tomorrow. owwwwwwwwwww Actually its not too bad, I can feel it in the backs of my hamstrings and upper back, but its not painful, just there! Hopefully some gentle "Mom & Tots Yoga" will stretch me out today ready for more fly tomorrow.

Fun with YouTubeDoubler! :lmao:KNELSON & THAT GUY :lmao:versus :lmao:MICHAEL PHELPS' WORLD RECORD!!! :lmao: a 200 fly for the ages (or maybe the aged) www.youtubedoubler.com/