How do I improve my 200 Butterfly?

Thanks, J'! I appreciate you taking the time to write your advice in detail AND search for this video! I also appreciate your constructive criticism. Your tone from the beginning made me really pay attention to what you were saying and take notes (which will be poolside with me). Your comments are spot-on, because those were the things I had to work on to improve my other strokes. I got them ironed out for the most part in breaststroke, so I just need to apply them to my fly as well. Regarding my head position, YEP! I am definitely keeping it too high, but that should be the easiest fix of the lot. The timing of my second kick, a bit harder... My pull pattern is my biggest frustration. I keep trying to land my hands wider, aiming for the lane lines, but I'm still too narrow. Then, I try to keep my hands closer together on the pull to get more power from my chest (as was demonstrated by Jim Matysek in an old issue of Swimmer Magazine. The problem with that is having a more difficult time getting my arms back out for a quick exit and recovery. Then, while I'm thinking about all that, my elbow drops! Your drill idea is a good one. I like the idea of thinking about those issues for 4 repeats, and then incorporating them all on the last four repeats. Thank you for your encouragement! :agree:

J, here's a side view of my (very tired!) fly that was shot after I had already trained about 700 meters of fly! This might be more helpful. Meanwhile, I will enlist my husband to shoot an underwater clip. www.youtube.com/watch

Elaine- My coaching experience is not as robust as many here (in fact it is quite minimal), but I have a few thoughts about your fly. Things I notice 1) when you push off the wall, breathe or are in a streamline or glide position, your head position looks a little high (or neck extended) to me- almost with your brow facing forward. This is really common and seems to come from a few places. Sometimes watching where we are going or spotting for other swimmers in our lane, other times from a lack of shoulder flexibility or just old habits. Either way, that brow/eyes forward position increases your frontal drag significantly and drives your hips down lower in the water, meaning that you need to do a lot more up/down motion to get going and does bring you to a dead stop during your stroke cycle. 2) Your second dolphin kick looks late in timing to me. This I would want to confirm with someone who coaches more butterfly, but in some stroke cycles I only see 1 kick and others two, with the second one not well coupled to your arm recovery. It also looks like that kick (and maybe both) are generated from yours knees rather than thinking of your whole body as a whip and starting that kick from your chest or at least hips. 3)Underwater pull pattern. I would love to be able to see your pull pattern in person! I can see it best when I slow down to 1/2 or 1/4 speed in the "Front view" and just like with the kick, I think you've got some fatigue at this point. I think both A) your entry and B) your pull pattern have potential opportunity. If you watch your hands enter the water, the entry is right in front of your ears/head (with arms extended which is great), but then your hands slide even more towards the center of your body and then they slide back out to the side, your elbows drop and your begin your pull. I would be curious about a slightly wider entry and thinking of your hand and forearms as a pulling "unit" where that "unit" pushes straight back towards the wall/touch pad behind you. Basically (and it may just be fatigue), your arms are slipping through the water with elbow dropped and not generating much propulsion. In most frames i see your palms facing the bottom of the pool with the elbows straight behind them, leading your pull. Just like in freestyle, dropping that elbow before your pull starts will increase drag and decrease power. You want to push the water back rather than down. Your out of water recovery and flexibility and tempo seem just right for you and yours goals. I would work on the mechanics and timing of the kick, would keep a head position that creates slightly less drag (a slight chin tuck off the walls and with breathing), but most of all would really want to see your underwater pull pattern when you are fresh and get that adjusted. I like "swim smooths' explanation of dropped elbow/high hand regarding free style and i think this applies here. The Race Club also has some great videos of pull pattern. I hope this doesn't seem overwhelming or off base- again my coaching experience is more in developmental/beginner kids or new-to-swim adults (triathletes etc) so the nuances of butterfly evade me and... I can't swim it at all ;) Keep fighting the good fight! I know you've had some injury and mobility issues too, so throw away any of my comments that don't apply to you. I'm always amazed by your hard work and pursuit of challenges. Look at "stone skipper" drill and you could do this for maybe 16 x25s. The first 4, get that head more neutral, chin tucked just a bit. The second 4 work on an early vertical forearm pull (or think about getting those palms and forarms pushing towards the wall behind you). The 3rd four work on starting that kick with a chest press (like cracking a whip, the kick echoes down to your toes). The last four put it all together.

www.youtube.com/watch This guy talks a lot but the first 2 minutes of the video he demonstrates the hand to elbow relationship I am trying to describe. I did not watch the end of the video because it was too long and I was just searching for a visual for you.

Y What about trying a straighter pull pattern- entering at shoulder width or just beyond, middle finger entering water first and pulling straight back? I agree you don't want your arms super wide but I wonder if simplifying the motion would get you more power and a more steady tempo. It seems like experts/coaches have a variety of opinions on pull pattern for fly. I used to swim fly this way, just bringing my arms straight back, and I have wondered myself if I should just go back to it. I seem to have an easier time exiting my hands for the recovery this way, and it would be easier! This is helpful. There is a lot to like about your fly- you have clearly developed strength and a sustainable tempo for you. I think your body position is really close to wear you want it. In this side view, you can really see the pause that comes at your entry and catch-again I'm really curious what some others will think or suggest here. Your recovery seems great and relaxed- this is probably a big part of the reason that you can swim the 200 fly! most people carry a ton of tension in their recovery. Thanks! I appreciate that you found something to like about my fly, because you won't like what you see in the underwater view! I sure didn't like it... I do like my recovery a lot better, though. I always think of Michael Phelps and try to emulate his recovery. It shows that I was tired in the side view video though, because I wasn't able to get my arms around cleanly, and I was throwing water forward. I'm always happier if I see water going sideways! As for the pause in my entry, I am trying to get some glide in before the next stroke to stretch it out for the 200 fly. I'm not confident I could sustain a faster tempo for 200 yards! The poor visibility and green water in this video is due to some pool issues our community pool is having at the moment, due to a leaky valve and their attempts to keep the pool full until the valve gets fixed. Sorry! Well, here goes nothin': www.youtube.com/watch

My pull pattern is my biggest frustration. I keep trying to land my hands wider, aiming for the lane lines, but I'm still too narrow. Then, I try to keep my hands closer together on the pull to get more power from my chest (as was demonstrated by Jim Matysek in an old issue of Swimmer Magazine. The problem with that is having a more difficult time getting my arms back out for a quick exit and recovery. Then, while I'm thinking about all that, my elbow drops! Your drill idea is a good one. I like the idea of thinking about those issues for 4 repeats, and then incorporating them all on the last four repeats. Thank you for your encouragement! :agree: You are so welcome and again if one of the expert level coaches comes along with a differing opinion, I would defer to them. Regarding the pull pattern- this is probably your biggest opportunity. I wonder if targeting the keyhole or "bringing hands in for power" is triggering that narrow entry and then slide in/slide out and elbow drop. What about trying a straighter pull pattern- entering at shoulder width or just beyond, middle finger entering water first and pulling straight back? I agree you don't want your arms super wide but I wonder if simplifying the motion would get you more power and a more steady tempo. It seems like experts/coaches have a variety of opinions on pull pattern for fly. I love that drill progression because of the underwater recovery- far less fatiguing.

J, here's a side view of my (very tired!) fly that was shot after I had already trained about 700 meters of fly! This might be more helpful. Meanwhile, I will enlist my husband to shoot an underwater clip. This is helpful. There is a lot to like about your fly- you have clearly developed strength and a sustainable tempo for you. I think your body position is really close to wear you want it. In this side view, you can really see the pause that comes at your entry and catch-again I'm really curious what some others will think or suggest here. Your recovery seems great and relaxed- this is probably a big part of the reason that you can swim the 200 fly! most people carry a ton of tension in their recovery.

Thanks, Orca and 67. I've seen videos of Yajima and I like his long glide. Orca, check him out here in Lane 2, and you will see his feet come out of the water:www.youtube.com/watch

This is my frustration : When I swim fly with a more up and down movement (bigger kick, going deeper at the end of recovery), I can swim fly forever. I've done a 2,000 yd fly as well as a 1,000, 900, and several 500's that way. The trade-off is that it is slow. When I try to flatten it out with a smaller kick and stay shallower, I lose my power. I'm fine for the 50 and even 100 that way, but I can't maintain it. I have the flexibility as demonstrated in the photo earlier in this thread, and I have strength. (How many 57-year-old women do you know that can do 100 military-style push-ups?) I have worked hard on both, and I continue to do so. I also train hard in the pool. So, what gives? Am I trying to fit a square peg in a round hole by trying to flatten out my fly? My recovery has improved, but I haven't gotten anywhere with trying to keep my arms shallower on entry or the catch, even though I think I am aiming forward (instead of down). My kick has gotten smaller; I used to kick with my entire lower leg coming out of the water. My smaller kick, however, has resulted in slower speed. Should I continue to try to swim conventional fly or go rogue like Yajima with a gliding style of butterfly?

My vote? think about your underwater pull pattern- whether you glide at the beginning or or not is probably way less important than how much propulsion your pull generates- I think you are spending time with palms towards the bottom of pool instead of the wall behind you. anchor those hands and push back is my vote- deep or shallow, glide, etc is probably a bit secondary to pull power. THose other things will decrease drag or fatigue but I don't think you are getting full power on your pull. Just 1 vote. Maybe pick one thing to try at once?? The key to stroke changes is to find the verbal cue that creates the desired change for the individual rather than a total "rebuild"- look at some of the things mentioned here and pick just a couple and think about which verbal cues will help you. Example- "early vertical forearm" is REALLY hard for a lot of people to conceptualize. So for some swimmers (again most of my experience is with early-career swimmers and adult swimmers), I try "palm pushes back" or maybe "hand below elbow." Others need to think of a straight pull rather than an "S"... Thinking of ALL these things at once is simply too much so go to the pool, have some fun and try on some mental focal points til you find one you like! I guess I would think of your stroke changes as "edits" rather than a "rebuild" since you've got a functional fly, are near your goal, have endurance and have identified a technique that you can hold up over a distance and does not cause injury. Like the head position- I'm thinking degrees/centimeter at most rather than inches of change- does that make sense? Yes, it totally makes sense, and it's reassuring! You successfully talked me off the ledge . Just kidding, but I was feeling a bit exasperated at feeling like I was spinning my wheels and getting nowhere fast. I liked your term of it being "edits," because I do a lot of writing and photography-- both of which require edits rather than rewrites or retakes. It's nice to know my fly only needs edits! I also agree with my pull pattern being the most essential flaw to fix. I have been working on it in my freestyle, and I am seeing some improvement. When I swim breaststroke (my best stroke), I think about it on every stroke I take. In fly, I think I am just trying to think about too much, so you are right that I need to narrow my focus to just the pull. I like the "palm pushes back" que, personally. Today, I worked on the 16x25's of stone skipper drill, but I found myself thinking about the pull on every one. Perhaps that was a good thing, after all! Thanks, J, for your thoughtful suggestions and help. You have no idea how much I appreciate you and my other fellow Forumites for helping this coach-less swimmer going it alone!