Solo Swimmers

1) If you can't swim with a local group: happened to me in the original group I learned to swim with. They had 4-5 people who were hit/miss. They only pay when they show up. So when the pool is needed for the younger people, guess who was bumped? So USMS loses on their yearly dues, I quit going to meets (so they lose money there), and no club, so USMS loses money there. Multiply that out. That's money that can go to things like Adult Learn to Swim month and grants. Not important? I think those who learn would say differently. This is a life saving skill. We have had featured on USMS covers those who went on to compete and do other swim things because of it. One life was touched and look at the result. 2) The reference to can't/won't was more in terms of doing strokes. As in doing *** with no legs. As in not able to do a 50 fly. I do butterstruggle and even with a screwed up lower end, I can still do it legally enough to make it. I've seen a Paralympic swimmer with no arms compete in fly. You may not be good at it (obviously I'm not) but where is the line drawn between can't and won't? Point being, until you make up your mind to do it, you don't know that. My coach said no 100/200 fly. Then no 200 fly. My response is do just once what others say you can't do and you'll never pay attention to their limitations again. Got a 97 year old doing 200 back and 50 back, 92 year olds doing 50 free, 100 free, Down's Syndrome people swimming 100 free, 50 free. I think "choice", as mentioned, is more of an accurate statement rather than "can't/won't". 3) "the only problem I see is letting things beyond one's control affect their enjoyment of things they can control". As you saw, my ability and enjoyment went out the door for several years because others didn't make the commitment. Is that something than can be controlled? Yes. When coaches call and check up several times, that says people aren't speaking up and letting the coach know how to plan practice. I would send a note saying I was sick before then. They knew to make up workouts based on that, they weren't doing extra work for nothing. You talk about make the effort to participate. Do they make a *consistent* effort or not? That's where the issue comes for me and why I have the examples of several years worth of what consistency in terms of effort means. I see a lot of people who don't make that effort. People showed up when we had a goal: local meet. After that, it dropped. I left. Does that help that group? Nope. Greater chances it goes by the wayside and we're always the one who gets dumped if space is an issue. They know the effort won't be made. 4) Think there is a bit of confusion here. "I have ever undertaken and quit every job I had ever had had I let those who didn't try as hard as me, or were more risk averse than me push me out." The ones who didn't try as hard and aren't as more risk averse have caused a group to fold, hence no swim for several years. The reason I left my old club? Same issue. Now the club is tiny, no one competes, and they used to have the bragging rights on a national level swimmer. You can't just have one or two in a group and it pay to have the group, a coach. USMS doesn't make money to pay people, for programs, if people just swim on their own and nothing else. Groups that patronize meets, work together, they bring in money and people. It allows them to have coaching staff that gives helps and hints. That's what USMS needs - and the more people out there who do that, the ones who do try, the more USMS can give back. That means more Adult Learn To Swim events, publication. 5) "I fully recognize that they pay as much for those resources as I do, and have as much right to them as I do." Ok so how about asking a meet why they won't let me swim? My money is the same as everyone elses. I'm handicapped. The assumption was that they had no chair to put me in the water. I said I start in the water and can get in and out on my own. No help needed, and starting in the water is legit. I only am a bit slower and the *** is modified so I can swim it (right now, only the 200, as after years I can finally do something that resembles a legit *** kick). Interferes with "meet ops". At the local rec center, lanes are listed as slow/medium/fast. A guy with very large fins gets in the fast lane with me. Even with the fins he can't swim but at *maybe* early medium speed. I'm on the 2nd lap of the 200 fly and overtaking him. That tells you how slow he was. He was doing backstroke and put his hand up in a stop sign. I kept going. He turned on his back, did free to the end and moved to the medium lane. Now if our money is the same, why should he be allowed to violate swim lane etiquette because his money is the same as mine? When we all pay our money, why am I expected to drop my workout for him? We have lane etiquette for a reason. We have multiple heats for a reason. If I am expected to help others out, and do, then I have every right to expect them to work with me so we all get out of it what we want. There is enough beefing on these forums about people not being in the right swim lane to indicate it is a problem. When the expectation is you do all the adjusting and miss your goals, you will be affected. I am going to beef, as that is not the way it should be. If all pay the same money, then I'd expect people to make allowances for you as you make it for them. With my old club, I would get whatever in the lane and had to miss more and more practices because I can't swim with someone who doesn't block the middle so I can flip turn, can't adjust to circle swim, etc. If my money is the same, they need to learn to adjust also. How do these kids grow the sport for adults? I get a lot of parents saying the kids are burned out after everything and *won't* swim. Ask USMS where the money is and where they put the money from the meets we enter, the clubs, etc. It goes to salaries, to events for us, ALTS, etc. The more people who join clubs, who enter meets, grows the sport visibly. It also means more money and possibly less fees because the overall revenue is greater. Someone swimming alone doesn't - and this is for adults. Swimming alone, no meets, there is every reason to not pay USMS and be a member.

1) If you can't swim with a local group: happened to me in the original group I learned to swim with. They had 4-5 people who were hit/miss. They only pay when they show up. So when the pool is needed for the younger people, guess who was bumped? So USMS loses on their yearly dues, I quit going to meets (so they lose money there), and no club, so USMS loses money there. Multiply that out. Why did you quit going to meets? That contradicts points you made in your previous posts! Very hypocritical in my opinion. This is what you previously posted: "If people don't want to swim, what about volunteering? Most groups I know put on one event a year. One Saturday, no one can help?" If you are so concerned about growing the sport (and USMS), not going to meets and at least volunteering is not doing your part. That's money that can go to things like Adult Learn to Swim month and grants. Not important? I think those who learn would say differently. This is a life saving skill. We have had featured on USMS covers those who went on to compete and do other swim things because of it. One life was touched and look at the result. 2) The reference to can't/won't was more in terms of doing strokes. As in doing *** with no legs. As in not able to do a 50 fly. I do butterstruggle and even with a screwed up lower end, I can still do it legally enough to make it. I've seen a Paralympic swimmer with no arms compete in fly. You may not be good at it (obviously I'm not) but where is the line drawn between can't and won't? Again, to King Frog's point, that's your choice. What other swimmers choose to do is up to them. Point being, until you make up your mind to do it, you don't know that. My coach said no 100/200 fly. Then no 200 fly. My response is do just once what others say you can't do and you'll never pay attention to their limitations again. It's not always about limitations in the context you see them. How can you judge what "limitations" might mean to somebody else? Your definition of "limitation" and your situation is unique you. Not everybody sees their world through your lens. Got a 97 year old doing 200 back and 50 back, 92 year olds doing 50 free, 100 free, Down's Syndrome people swimming 100 free, 50 free. I think "choice", as mentioned, is more of an accurate statement rather than "can't/won't". Yes, they chose to do it because they could swim those events. If they "can't" or "won't" do it, they will choose not to do so. It's up to each person to decide for themselves. 3) "the only problem I see is letting things beyond one's control affect their enjoyment of things they can control". As you saw, my ability and enjoyment went out the door for several years because others didn't make the commitment. Is that something than can be controlled? Yes. When coaches call and check up several times, that says people aren't speaking up and letting the coach know how to plan practice. I would send a note saying I was sick before then. They knew to make up workouts based on that, they weren't doing extra work for nothing. Why did you let that situation control you? Clearly, it was your choice to let your "ability and enjoyment go out the window for several years because others didn't make the commitment." Why didn't you become a solo swimmer (the topic of this thread) and just train on your own? Surely there must have been open swim times at that pool or another pool in your area. If you cared enough about your "ability" and "enjoyment", you could have either found another team, found another pool, hired a personal coach, trained solo without a coach, or even moved to a different neighborhood if that's what it took. The closest team to me is located 50 minutes away, and they train in the evenings. I chose not do make that sacrifice, and I swim solo instead. From time-to-time, I hire a coach. We also chose our community in large part because of the indoor pool, giving me a year-round option for swimming. There are so few lap swimmers here, I always have my own lane. :bliss: It's all about choices. You talk about make the effort to participate. Do they make a *consistent* effort or not? That's where the issue comes for me and why I have the examples of several years worth of what consistency in terms of effort means. I see a lot of people who don't make that effort. People showed up when we had a goal: local meet. After that, it dropped. You still don't get that Masters is all about personal choice. Not everybody has the same goals and priorities as you. That's their choice. Don't like it? SWIM SOLO! I left. Does that help that group? Nope. Greater chances it goes by the wayside and we're always the one who gets dumped if space is an issue. They know the effort won't be made. 4) Think there is a bit of confusion here. "I have ever undertaken and quit every job I had ever had had I let those who didn't try as hard as me, or were more risk averse than me push me out." The ones who didn't try as hard and aren't as more risk averse have caused a group to fold, hence no swim for several years. The reason I left my old club? Same issue. Now the club is tiny, no one competes, and they used to have the bragging rights on a national level swimmer. You can't just have one or two in a group and it pay to have the group, a coach. USMS doesn't make money to pay people, for programs, if people just swim on their own and nothing else. Groups that patronize meets, work together, they bring in money and people. It allows them to have coaching staff that gives helps and hints. That's what USMS needs - and the more people out there who do that, the ones who do try, the more USMS can give back. That means more Adult Learn To Swim events, publication. USMS isn't just for club swimmers; it's for ALL swimmers. Why do you have to be part of a club if it's making you so unhappy, over and over again? I know I'm happier swimming solo on my own term, where, when, and how I want. The reasons I'm attached to a team is to swim relays at meets and be part of a supportive group at those meets. We have solo swimmers from other states who are part of our team for the same reason. They train solo in Tennessee and North Carolina; however, they are my teammates at meets. Have you considered this option for yourself? 5) "I fully recognize that they pay as much for those resources as I do, and have as much right to them as I do." Ok so how about asking a meet why they won't let me swim? My money is the same as everyone elses. I'm handicapped. The assumption was that they had no chair to put me in the water. I said I start in the water and can get in and out on my own. No help needed, and starting in the water is legit. I only am a bit slower and the *** is modified so I can swim it (right now, only the 200, as after years I can finally do something that resembles a legit *** kick). Interferes with "meet ops". At the local rec center, lanes are listed as slow/medium/fast. A guy with very large fins gets in the fast lane with me. Wait a minute! Why were you in the FAST lane? You have said many times you are slow. I swam with you at the Georgia Golden Olympics. You are a lot slower than me, and as a 54 year-old at the time, I didn't even rank on the motivation charts in 200 fly. Sure, this guy ended up being slower than you, but I could just see another swimmer coming in who IS faster than you and wondering why you were in the fast lane. She/he could have felt the same way about you. Besides, what IS the definition of slow/medium/fast? Unless it's defined, it's up to each person to make their best judgment. If I had shown up to the pool, even as slow as I am, I would have wondered why BOTH of you were in the fast lane! Even with the fins he can't swim but at *maybe* early medium speed. I'm on the 2nd lap of the 200 fly and overtaking him. That tells you how slow he was. He was doing backstroke and put his hand up in a stop sign. I kept going. He turned on his back, did free to the end and moved to the medium lane. Now if our money is the same, why should he be allowed to violate swim lane etiquette because his money is the same as mine? When we all pay our money, why am I expected to drop my workout for him? We have lane etiquette for a reason. We have multiple heats for a reason. If I am expected to help others out, and do, then I have every right to expect them to work with me so we all get out of it what we want. There is enough beefing on these forums about people not being in the right swim lane to indicate it is a problem. When the expectation is you do all the adjusting and miss your goals, you will be affected. I am going to beef, as that is not the way it should be. If all pay the same money, then I'd expect people to make allowances for you as you make it for them. With my old club, I would get whatever in the lane and had to miss more and more practices because I can't swim with someone who doesn't block the middle so I can flip turn, can't adjust to circle swim, etc. If my money is the same, they need to learn to adjust also. How do these kids grow the sport for adults? I get a lot of parents saying the kids are burned out after everything and *won't* swim. Ask USMS where the money is and where they put the money from the meets we enter, the clubs, etc. It goes to salaries, to events for us, ALTS, etc. The more people who join clubs, who enter meets, grows the sport visibly. It also means more money and possibly less fees because the overall revenue is greater. Someone swimming alone doesn't - and this is for adults. Swimming alone, no meets, there is every reason to not pay USMS and be a member. I disagree with you on this point more than I can express in words! I'll give you several reasons why I have EVERY reason to pay USMS and be a member; however, I will just list the most important to me: 1. Supporting an organization I believe in. I want to see the organization survive and thrive, whether I compete or not. This organization is just as much for non-competing solo fitness swimmers as it is for King Frog, a World Record holder. Right, King Frog? :D 2. Swimmer Magazine. One of the original reasons I joined (before I got into competition), was to get Swimmer Magazine in my mailbox! I read every issue cover-to-cover. 3. The website, Discussion Forums, and being a part of an awesome swim community. Sure, you can access this stuff as a non-member, but I want to be part of it. 4. Swim clinics and events. Swim Fest was an awesome event, and I could not have attended if I had not been a member. 5. Georgia Masters. I would not receive the newsletters each month (which I enjoy), and I wouldn't be able to write for the newsletter if I hadn't joined USMS. The friends I've made, the experiences I had (such as volunteering in the hospitality room during the annual convention)-- I can't begin to express what it has meant to me, as a SOLO SWIMMER. I was unable to compete for months due to my hip surgery and rehab; however, I was welcomed just the same. I timed at a meet, shot photos, wrote articles-- all things I did as a non-competitor, solo swimmer. Was I happy still paying the dues? You bet! There are so many more comments I could add in response to your posts; however, I have spent way to much time already... As the starter of this thread, may I suggest you take your "beef" to the "Swim Rant" thread in the future? I would like to keep this thread as a positive environment for solo swimmers to come and share their thoughts, questions, and experiences; whether they compete at USMS meets (or not), swim just for fitness, or swim as a triathlete.

~My happiness is in direct proportion to my acceptance and in inverse proportion to my expectations. ~ Michael J. Fox

"Can't" is a bit of a semantics game. It can mean literal ability, will, justification, or sacrifice. I "can't" do meets because my kids activities (swimming!) are a higher priority for me. I "can't" swim with a locals masters program because it would mean my kids would have to give up the sport. I don't think that makes me a problem for USMS. I "can't" justify the cost of some things because I'm unwilling, not unable to pay for them. I don't think that makes me a problem for the economy (of course, I'm sure the local Porsche dealer would say I'm a problem!). I "can't" do a 200 Fly because......well I'm not physically able to, at least legally. Not liking one's reasoning does not make it less valid. Again, the only problem I see is letting things beyond one's control affect their enjoyment of things they can control. It is disheartening to read that others think that people who at least make an effort to participate are a problem. I sure would hate for "can't" to start having a peer group judgement criterion, but that is what it reads like. Again, well said-- and, much better than I could have expressed, especially in your last two paragraphs. Nicholollsvi, for being "handicapped" (your word, not mine), you seem to be quite judgmental about other people. Not everybody's "handicaps" are visible. There are plenty of physical issues people have that can't be seen (I have plenty of those!). In addition, there are mental and emotional "handicaps" that you need to consider before telling people what they should do.

1) Why did you quit going to meets? I just learned to swim. No coach, no club, had no idea of how to navigate the swim world. I became handicapped. Had to learn to swim kinda like all over again. Legs are important. :) I passed the test as a stroke/turn/time judge. I've also volunteered to help do the lap counts for distance. Have you done that? Those are things that help meets, and you can do the lap counts if you are swimming in a meet. I pass on meets I know to our local newsletter. It is me who goes to meets and attempts to get people to swim or attend other meets or try things. I also bring food. :) I have tried to get a local group to do ALTS. I believe they'll try to apply for a grant next year and there is another group or two I'm going to approach with the grant issue also, and to publicize it. Have you done that? 2) Again, to King Frog's point, that's your* choice.* What other swimmers *choose* to do is up to them. As someone said the choice of can't/won't is a loaded question. Choose not to do is better. Getting out of the comfort zone and learning new things can be a positive and a confidence booster. It's not always about limitations in the context you see them. How can you judge what "limitations" might mean to somebody else? Your definition of "limitation" and your situation is unique you. Not everybody sees their world through your lens. The attitude of willing to try new things, fail, succeed, to learn from mistakes and work with others are qualities that are always useful. Maybe a good way to see the world? Yes, they chose to do it *because *they could swim those events. If they "can't" or "won't" do it, they will choose not to do so. It's up to each person to decide *for themselve*s. See above. 3) Why did you let that situation control you? Early on, having no experience, just newly handicapped, it did. Once the second team was created, I joined, and then moved on from there (like a few others), I found others who supported the attitude I have of trying anything and keep working at it. I'm not an athlete but I can still work on being the best I can, and try to go above my limitations. That's something I do encourage people with. As one quote put it, don't let your worst enemy be between your own two ears. I find that a lot, and I do have confidence in people that they could do something if they tried. You never know if you can walk on water until you get out of the boat. Why didn't you become a solo swimmer (the topic of this thread) and just train on your own? Unlike the vast majority of people, I knew next to nothing about swimming, much less competition, the culture, and had no resources around that helped handicapped adults. I do not live in an area where there is an abundance of pools: only a city over has rec pools, the rest didn't. One just recently added a pool in another city. We only recently got a couple of teams in the area with masters' coaches. All of which started after I had already gotten back into it. You have the background of being in swimming. I didn't. Being handicapped also makes a difference in coaches which you didn't have to deal with. You have your husband to photo you. I do not have any one to do that. SWIM SOLO!* Swimming solo has pros and cons. In your case, and others I know who came from a swim background, it works pretty well. For those of us not, and handicapped, the resources are not as easy. So from my POV and I suspect the worlds' POV, they would say you would have a much easier time than I would. Hence if I can figure this out with the limited resources I have, I would expect others to also. You would have an easier time getting accepted by a group without a handicap than those who do. I still see a lot of discrimination against the handicapped. USMS isn't just for club swimmers; it's for ALL swimmers. Yes it is. However, why do you think that competitions are noted highly? USMS does make more revenue from those who compete, which helps them to further the overall goal of adult swimming. The fewer clubs you have, the fewer meets you have, the more likely it is people will swim solo and dump USMS. Its not a knock but people can go for free on the internet and get workouts. There are a lot of people like you with a background in swimming. They don't need USMS. If you promote solo swims, it kinda makes belonging to a club or USMS sort of not worth it. Why do you have to be part of a club if it's making you so unhappy, over and over again? I've not been with that club for months, so I'm not sure why you are focusing on this. It happened in the past and I use it as an example. I have gone on to a club where I'm very happy with them. Been with them for months. Maybe it would have been more helpful to ask me for a timeline first? Wait a minute! Why were you in the FAST lane? I am the fast one, the more advanced one. On more than one occasion I've been moved to a faster lane or had a lane mate moved to a slower one. In terms of meets, against non handicapped people who learned as kids, I'm slower. When I go any where else like the Y or rec centers, I'm quite fast. I would have thought you would have realized this, as you have gone to meets and swam in rec centers, etc. so you would know the differences. I can easily pass and wear out college age kids, as swimming is a function of technique. You have said many times you are slow. I swam with you at the Georgia Golden Olympics. You are a lot slower than me, and as a 54 year-old at the time, I didn't even rank on the motivation charts in 200 fly. Sure, this guy ended up being slower than you, but I could just see another swimmer coming in who IS faster than you and wondering why you were in the fast lane. You don't know how fast/medium/slow lanes work in rec centers? The speed is determined by whoever is there that day/time. In many rec centers, they ignore it so everyone has a lane to themselves unless someone like me shows up who is faster. The only time that someone who has shown up was faster, we have swum together. We both knew lane etiquette, and accomodated each other. Had I moved over, I would have messed up the slower lane. That's why the lifeguards/admin didn't move us. She/he could have felt the same way about you. Besides, what IS the definition of slow/medium/fast? Unless it's defined, it's up to each person to make their best judgment. If I had shown up to the pool, even as slow as I am, I would have wondered why BOTH of you were in the fast lane! It would have been up to the lifeguard to make the call. Not us. How do these kids grow the sport for adults? I get a lot of parents saying the kids are burned out after everything and *won't* swim. There was a lot here that wasn't addressed and I hope will be later on. I disagree with you on this point more than I can express in words! I'll give you several reasons why I have EVERY reason to pay USMS and be a member; however, I will just list the most important to me: Right this is for you. Not everyone is that way, has that POV, as you tell me. That is a huge loss to the organization. What could be done with those people for USMS in terms of promoting adult swimming, I'd hope for more ALTS, etc. would be tremendous. However, there are many who simply ditched swimming and don't exercise or can go online and get workouts and not join. That is a problem, a loss. Actually, I saw more negativity from the opposite side, more personal comments, than I did in asking me to explain my position and going thru all the examples I gave. You decided you didn't want to discuss a different conversation you started in PM. Same here. I had to put my foot down and that is when you wanted the conversation to stop. No different here.

Physically handicapped here. Legs are not what they were. The hands got PT until I said forget it and they are off at times but not enough that I just dont cope/compensate for it in whatever way I can.

I think/hope most of this disagreement is semantic. Can't and won't are both words with baggage. Can't implies helplessness, won't implies oppositionallity. More empowering is "I choose not to".

I think Elaine is a pretty good swimmer for her age. Anyone that swims 200 yard FLy under 4:30 is doing great. Many of the top swimmers in the women's 55 to 59 were once world class swimmers. If MS Pipes swims 2:17 200 yard butterfly then she probably went to Olympic trials as a kid. Same goes for Ms Caroline Krattli swimming a 1:10 100 yard breaststroke as a 55 year old. I once swam in a heat with Kim Brecht who was once the American record holder in 100 yard breaststroke at 1:06. She wiped me out in 200 meter breaststroke going a 2:47 while I swim a 3:07 or 3:09. As a 46 year old I swam a 200 meter breaststroke at 3:58. One's body changes with age. I have further slowed down a lot since the last Masters competition I did was in early 2004 and did a senior Olympics events this year. Stopped working out again for several years until July 2016 on a regular basis. Elaine was a 1:19 breaststroker in high school which was a good time back in the early 1980's. So, I defend her on this blog. As for disabilities, I have asthma which made swimming harder even though lots of swimmers have that condition. I have ADHD discovered as a kid. I have Asperger's and learning disabilities.

Suggestion: When you use my quotes, will you please differentiate them from your own statements by letting my quotes stand in my chosen font? You can do this by using the "Reply with quote" feature and inserting your statements within what I have written, or making your statements after my quote after erasing your previous statements.) It may be difficult for other readers to discern in your previous message what you and I have each written. I would prefer there be no confustion on that. (#2 was especially confusing to differentiate.) 1) Why did you quit going to meets? I've also volunteered to help do the lap counts for distance. Have you done that? Yes, I have. I also shoot photos for our state's newsletter, interview swimmers and write a "Swimmer Profile" each month, periodically write articles about meets I was at such as the Masters World Championships in Montreal, Georgia Games Open Water Meet, etc.; the articles I write for Swimspire are also for our newsletter; I was recently added to serve on our B.O.D; I have taught four people in our community how to swim at no charge (dozens and dozens of hours spent); volunteered at the USMS National Convention hospitality suite last September; shot video of teammates for stroke feedback; timed; and helped clean up after the Pentathlon meet and annual team meeting. You have the background of being in swimming. My only background in swimming before joining USMS was swimming for my high school swim team. Our "coach" was a P.E. teacher who got stuck with the swim team. She did not know how to swim-- a fact we learned when we threw her in the pool after beating our rival. She was in tears as she struggled to the edge of the pool with panic in her eyes. I learned how to swim somewhat properly by watching the only other breaststroker on the team. (I was the only other swimmer who liked breaststroke, so I became the other "breaststroker" on the squad.) All of my "background" was acquired by watching others, reading books, and later watching videos when I joined USMS. I also hired a part-time coach by the hour for swim lessons to learn the strokes properly. (I wish I could say my fly coaching stuck, but that's a subject for another thread...) If you promote solo swims, it kinda makes belonging to a club or USMS sort of not worth it." I don't "promote" solo swimming; I only started this thread as a place for all of us who are stuck in this situation to share ideas and commiserate. Julia approached me about writing a series of articles for Swimspire. It wasn't my idea, but I am happy to do so, because not all of us have easy access to clubs/teams. I'm betting that if you ask the USMS staff if they would rather have the $ they get from solo swimmers or let them drop out, they are happy to get our $. Besides, I ask every swimmer I meet everywhere I go if they are USMS members. If they aren't, I ask them why not, and I give them information about the organization. I always encourage people I meet to join, and I consider myself a good ambassador for the organization. Even if I didn't compete at meets (which I do; look me up under "Krugman"), I would still promote the organization the same way. I'm betting a lot of other solo swimmer members do the same, even if they don't compete but still find value in their membership. Why do you have to be part of a club if it's making you so unhappy, over and over again? I've not been with that club for months, so I'm not sure why you are focusing on this. Actually, if I remember correctly, it was you who has complained repetitively about that club on other threads as well, and I don't believe you mentioned that you had not been with them for "months". Why were you focusing on something that was in your past? Rather than dwell on the past, live in the moment and set goals for the future! Maybe it would have been more helpful to ask me for a timeline first? No, it was up to you to make that clear in your statements. Better yet, do not dwell on the past. Actually, I saw more negativity from the opposite side, more personal comments, than I did in asking me to explain my position and going thru all the examples I gave. You decided you didn't want to discuss a different conversation you started in PM. Same here. I had to put my foot down and that is when you wanted the conversation to stop. No different here. We have quite a disconnect in our communication styles. It happens. 67King and I seem to be able to understand each other more easily, as do King Frog and I. I come to the conclusion what we need to stop a conversation when it becomes apparent we will never come to an understanding. HB-2 (our PM conversation for those in the gallery) was a hot-button issue, and we will never agree. My facts came from USA Today, and I have a heart that I am proud will never change. What can I say? We are on different planets, and we just communicate differently. It is what it is.

I personally do not understand why anyone would take it upon themselves to criticize others because they don't swim on a team or have the same goals. That's like saying if you don't want to join a running club and support them and train for a marathon, you shouldn't run. I'm calling ******** on that one.:mooning: