Ok, so the more they email me, the more I get nervous about the water temp. Last year it was 69 which stung to get in, but it made for a nice swimming temp. By the end, though, my fingers and toes felt a little numb, but that could have been tired (??).
But this year, it could be up to 10 degrees colder?! What to do when the coolest water I can find here in Cincinnati is 80?
I don't think going in a later wave was a huge disadvantage.
From other races, I agree ... but neither is it an advantage as the slower swimmers you pass do not "add value" from a drafting perspective. Drafting off swimmers slightly faster than you is helpful, but not off swimmers slower than you.
- benefiting from the pacing, draft, and navigation of slightly faster swimmers
Of course this one doesn't help much if you are the fastest swimmer out there.
First and most importantly, congratulations to Andy for swimming such an incredible time.
Like itritoo, I would love to have any training or nutrition tips as to how to improve to that extent.
Of all the factors that Andy had to overcome, what really strikes me as incredible is the fact that he left in the 3rd wave! I've done numerous open water swims and I found it next to impossible to weave through earlier waves as it's so difficult to keep a straight course when going around people, slingshot effect or not. Has anyone else had this experience? Or do others find it to be an advantage to go in later waves? I've never heard of that being an advantage nor have I ever experienced that as an advantage. More of a disadvantage.
Anyway, my purpose for this post is to see if I should start looking differently at some *certainties* that I thought I understood about OW swimming.
-He trained in the pool this summer by going 5K with 1:10 repeats (confirmed by other swimmers).
I am not trying to be a jerk here: I am either completely misinformed or this claim is patently false. In this very thread the set was 50x100's on 1:15 in yards. Now it is 50x100's in on 1:10 meters?
There is 14 years of data on Mr. Seibt in the top 10 data base. His "graph" looks just like everyone else’s. 14 years ago he was doing 1000 yard frees in 10:24. We have a 10:36 9 years ago, and a 10:51 this year. These are very respectable times, but hardly world class. But now, after 14 years, he is putting up a set that Micheal Phelps would have trouble with (for the record I think Phelps could do 50x100's on 1:10 but he sure wouldn't look forward to it). What is the explanation for this? Hanging back for 14 years?
It is not going out on a limb to say that any swimmer with a 14 year track record similar to Mr. Seibt’s cannot do 50x100's on 1:10 in LCM in a practice setting ( or any setting). I think more than 3x100s would be a struggle at that pace. So can we get some clarification, Chris? What was the specific claim? And would it bother you if you find out that some of the evidence you were given was wrong or exaggerated?
Hello from an occasional lurker...
FWIW, I swam at least a couple seconds faster per 100m in Big Shoulders than I'm capable of swimming 100 laps in a LCM pool. That could indicate the course was shorter than a true 5K. It might also indicate:
- I benefited significantly from the pacing and draft of somewhat faster swimmers near the front of the 1st wave;
- there was some net favorable current (possible in a triangular course);
- the blueseventy is just that awesome.
You just never know with open-water - there are too many variables. And in this case, the observable conditions (water temp, surface calm) were nearly perfect.
That said, I do think there's an advantage in Big Shoulders from starting with the first wave. We had clear water for more than half the race, and I definitely slowed down once we had to swim over/around slower swimmers. It was also much more difficult to stay on the feet of my pace group when we got mixed up with different waves.
So, the only advantage I can see for Andy starting in a later wave is that the leaders of the first wave were unaware of him, and thus might have swum at less than full effort (they were only trying to beat each other).
I don't know the course, but it seems that if you were going to cut a course by that much (a number of minutes), it would be pretty evident to the safety people and race officials. If nothing else, I would expect a safety boat to rush over and try to keep me from swimming to Canada by accident. Not to mention that many eyes are on the front pack of a race anyway, so someone just casually swimming over into the lead would certainly be noticed.
Actually in this race it might not be difficult. All the boats and lifeguards are on the outside of the course. You could cut inside and it would be doubtful any lifeguards would rush over becuase they'd have to cross through the course (and all the swimmers) to do so. I suspect the lifeguards task is to watch for struggling swimmers, not to serve as race officials. Also, Andy didn't finish with the front pack. He finished at 9:06 and the leaders in the first wave finished just before 9:00.
There was also a change in the course marking this year. In past year there were only triangular buoys marking the vertices of the triangular course. This year there were also round buoys placed around the middle of each leg. It would certainly be possible to be confused by these round buoys and turn early.
And, no, I'm not suggesting this is what Andy did, I'm just refuting the possibility that cutting the course would be difficult to pull off. Using Occam's razor I think the most likely scenario is that Andy Seibt swam the regulation course faster than anyone else did.
I actually think it would be very difficult to cut the course without someone noticing. It's a giant triangle and to cut the course would require someone swimming right across one of the corners which would be obvious to the lifeguard boats. A brightly colored cap suddenly in the middle where there are no swimmers would draw attention. The only way I can think to cheat the course would be to only swim one circuit very slowly. Let the race leaders very obviously wearing red or green caps pass you and make sure you finish less than five minutes behind the red caps.
On starting in the right wave, I didn't notice any white caps in the red wave in which I started. However, I did notice 7-8 red caps starting in the green cap wave (the first wave). What was that all about?
That said, I don't think this happened either. I think the man swam a great race. This is entirely possible. While not on the 5K scale, I can personally speak to having race results deviate significantly from my previous recent results. In high school, I once pulled a 100 fly time to place in the top 3 in the district meet when I'd never before swum anything that would have placed in the top 12.
As for cheating the Manhattan Marathon I'm thinking a quick jog down 38th might do the trick.
The claim has been made that Andy swam 50x100's on 1:10 in LCM (not directly by Andy, it is possible that Chris meant something else or was reporting inaccuaretly).
Hold on now. I don't think Chris ever claimed it was done long course.
And yet...
1) We have a number of people and the timing chip that agree he was in the correct wave start.
2) We have the timing chip and others who saw him finish.
Therefore, any indiscretion must have occurred in the middle of the race. This would imply that he might have:
1) Cut the course.
2) Hitched a ride in a boat.
3) Taken the Chicago Transit Authority's well-known submarine subway, a la Rosie Ruiz.
I don't know the course, but it seems that if you were going to cut a course by that much (a number of minutes), it would be pretty evident to the safety people and race officials. If nothing else, I would expect a safety boat to rush over and try to keep me from swimming to Canada by accident. Not to mention that many eyes are on the front pack of a race anyway, so someone just casually swimming over into the lead would certainly be noticed.
Ditto being noticed for hitching a ride in a boat.
So does that leave only the submarine subway?
I also suppose that it's POSSIBLE that space aliens came down, abducted everyone (including the officials and any observers) but the winner for several minutes while he swam on blissfully unaware that it was just he and the birds out there. But we won't know this for several years until numerous participants start having strange dreams about small, gray-clad people administering rectal probes and the like.
Seriously, how do you pull off a several minute cheat in an OW race like this and given all the investigation into the matter?
I'd REALLY like to win the Manhattan Island Marathon Swim...
-LBJ
