Ok, so the more they email me, the more I get nervous about the water temp. Last year it was 69 which stung to get in, but it made for a nice swimming temp. By the end, though, my fingers and toes felt a little numb, but that could have been tired (??).
But this year, it could be up to 10 degrees colder?! What to do when the coolest water I can find here in Cincinnati is 80?
Former Member
I've been lurking on this one and thought I'd toss in some thoughts.
First, I do not think it is fair/appropriate to speculate that the individual cut the course intentionally (if you assume he did). There are no facts to support that. Have I missed a buoy. Yes, but only an intermediate one in line with the others. I don't know how I missed it. I was only 25 feet away when I passed it. Lucky for me it was optional that you pass to one side.
Have I ever led a race wrongly thinking someone had got away at the start? Yes. Have I ever thought that I was leading a race because I didn't see someone get away or got hidden by overtaking an earlier wave? Yes, that has also happened to me. Have I ever been surprised that I beat people who have beaten me before. Yes.
But the big question is: at the conclusion of a race where I was the overall winner (still waiting for that day), and in looking at the results I knew of people in the race that were completely out of my league, did I admit to myself that there must be something wrong? It is like not being charged the correct amount when buying something and when getting your change you know you weren't charged enough. It must be noted that the actual overall time in an OW race is irrelevant. Even with GPS I never have confidence the distance of a race is correct.
I believe that based on the RD's comments, only the swimmer in question can put an end to these questions.
First, I do not think it is fair/appropriate to speculate that the individual cut the course intentionally (if you assume he did). There are no facts to support that.
Nor does it change the results to speculate as much. I'll edit my posts.
Does it matter what I believe? :)
Really I'm trying to look at this from the meet director's point of view. Would you disqualify a swimmer because someone claims to have seen someone turn at the wrong buoy?
You're right to suggest that the race director has his hands tied. He's really done a wonderful job w/ this race and he understands this quite well... Unless someone comes forward w/ definitive evidence or Andy admits to "inadvertently" rounding the wrong mark the results have to stand. You've got to believe that he would know whether or not he rounded a spherical vs a triangular bouy. Yes, I'm among many who find the result highly suspicious, but Chris can't just strip him of his medal. While honesty is an integral component of competitions like this... my advice is to train like hell and blow out of the water next year... that would be the sweetest revenge!
Here are Andy's listings from Athlinks.com showing his Big Shoulders results. There were no other results listed in his name to compare them to. It lists the date,his Bib #, Age Group, Gender, Overall placing and time (irrelevant).
Event Name & Course State Date Bib Plc A Plc G Plc O Final
Big Shoulders 2.5K / 5K Open Water Swim - Open Water Swim-5K IL 9/6/08 349, 4, 47, 58, 1:09:05
Big Shoulders 5K/2.5K Open Water Swim 2006 - Swim-5K IL 9/9/06 486, 10, 32, 45, 1:11:11
Big Shoulders 5K/2.5K Open Water Swim 2005 - Swim-5K IL 9/10/05 424, 7, 36, 53, 1:21:12
Big Shoulders 5K/2.5K Open Water Swim 2005 - Swim-2.5K IL 9/10/05 424, 9, 36, 47, 38:32.00
Big Shoulders 5K/2.5K Open Water Swim 2004 - Swim-5K IL 9/11/04 440, 3, 26, 33, 1:12:09
Unless someone comes forward w/ definitive evidence
I do not think that is necessary in this matter. There is plenty of circumstantial evidence and there is definitive evidence that someone cut. This isn't a criminal trial, we dont need "beyond a reasonable doubt," to conclude the results should be changed. I believe it is a preponderance of evidence for civil cases.
Do we have that?
Andy's personal swim history at this event suggest this is not possible.
The training times that Andy is presenting as proof do not suggest that this is possible.
The quality of the field suggests this is not possible.
Atleast one person saw a strong male swimmer cut the course (keep in mind this means 1 of only a handful of people) and claim to have led the race from the start.
I am wondering why there weren't any officials out on the course. When our team put the 25K championship on in '08 we had USA swim officials out on the lake in pontoons at strategic locations watching for foul play, course cutting, and verifying laps. (lifeguards were out there too in seperate boats) If there were officials on the course and they are fine with it then we should be too. If there were no officials, lets get some out there next time so another swimmer doesn't have to get raked over the coals. It was a national championship and we "the swimmers" paid good money to get an accurate time and place in this race.
Other than this controversy I thought the race was managed flawlessly, as always BS is a rocking race! :agree:
"It must be noted that the actual overall time in an OW race is irrelevant. Even with GPS I never have confidence the distance of a race is correct."
It's correct to suggest that time in an OW event is irrelevant is some respects. However, the time in question is relevant in relation to the other swimmers. For the most part, the swimmers all endured the same conditions and presumably swam roughly the same distance. Whether or not the course is marked out to be a 4.9k or 5.4k all the swimmers are presumably rounding the same marks.
It's correct to suggest that time in an OW event is irrelevant is some respects. However, the time in question is relevant in relation to the other swimmers.
I agree
The quality of the field suggests this is not possible.
I'd certainly agree w/ you on this one... w/ his time and the field he beat he'd place in the top ten at the U.S. nationals. Who knows? 10K: London 2012?
