No sandbagging: It's the law

Perhaps they don't like being edged out of a top ten time by someone who knowingly doesn't follow the rules. Just because others cheat doesn't let you off the hook. I wonder how many top ten times you have where you knowingly entered a false time to gain an advantage over your fellow competitors. Perhaps a little s behind your name would make it better. Pretty harsh. Maybe after on the few occasions I have won my age group for nationals and being knocked out of an all-american spot by somebody, I should call them a coward and unsportsmanlike for not facing me. I understand it is a different situation but I cannot imagine calling someone a cheater just because they are in another heat and beat me straight up (a wussy perhaps, but not a cheater). As far as number of events goes, I guess I am not only a once a decade sandbagger, but a scumbag as well...9-11 events per meet for me...which is the actual threshold in my mind that makes it ok for a 44 year-old man to shave his body....that is why they call me the "garbage man."--quantity over quality:)

Wow, I'd love to see the results of your "poll". I'm sure the questions weren't biased, and the polled group was a reflection of women swimmers who compete at meets. Entering a 36 when you did a 30? Come on. In our little forum discussion you don't have too many female supporters. Perhaps they don't like being edged out of a top ten time by someone who knowingly doesn't follow the rules. Just because others cheat doesn't let you off the hook. I wonder how many top ten times you have where you knowingly entered a false time to gain an advantage over your fellow competitors. Perhaps a little s behind your name would make it better. I agree that the max number of events should be adjusted. I'm all for women and mens heats. It would be nice to have a true national championship, but that's another topic that doesn't answer why you think it's ok to enter false times to gain an advantage. You, sir, are a bigger *ss than me! I guess I should be sent to the forum jail for my attempted sandbag at a non-national meet. With respect to my particular situation at that one meet (as opposed to the 100s and 1000s of sandbaggers, many of whom are TT & WR swimmers), you must be quite dense. I clearly stated that I did not want to be consigned to an end lane with men in all the center lanes if I entered the time I "expected" to swim in my best events. And though there is a rule that is supposed to prohibit this from happening, it is never applied. I don't happen to think it's fair or sportsmanlike for that to happen to women. Sorry if this seems "petty" to posters like Herb or bothersome to meet directors, but I tapered 3 weeks for this meet, fairness was important to me and I was excessively nervous. And, rest assured, when Jeff did take the time to reseed many of the women's times (which he doesn't want to do again), I had plenty of competition and swam in 3 different lanes. So no scarlet S by my WRs. And for the record, I swam much faster than I thought I would in the backstroke events and my shock was evident; this happens sometimes, especially after swimming for years exclusively in a tech suit. (I seem to recall you thought that was "cheating" as well.) Also, for the record, the outside lanes at this pool are, in fact, less desirable -- unlike some of the outside lanes at national pools as in the video Speedo posted. I have no idea why other women haven't commented. It's possible, as you say, that they all think I'm scurrilous for copping to such attempted behavior at one mixed gender taper meet. I, on the other hand, would guess that it's the same problem we've always had on this forum. Women leave the forum or only lurk because the threads become too harsh and contentious, much like this one with all the name calling and moralizing. Or there is an excess of the "I'm always right-itis," which can be tiresome. Add to that we are sometimes "oversensitive." And if you don't believe me when I say I've heard other women grumbling about mixed gender meets and seeding, go ask some yourself. The only male who's offered anything cogent as opposed to hostile was gdanner. Unfortunately, his point that he's a small guy swimming against big guys is only magnified further when you have a small woman swimming against big guys. I think it's pretty rich that all the men here are telling me, the only woman poster, how I should feel about mixed gender meets. In terms of other sandbagging, I just don't care what people seed themselves at and/or whether they sandbag. Worry about yourself and just race.

And I'm still somewhat unclear on why sandbagging kills timelines in the non-distance events. I think split requests would be far worse offenders. There was an early post in this thread that actually did timeline comparisons for meets seeded by a variety of methods, which gave some idea of the "sandbag effect." Imagine two hypothetical meets. Meet A is perfectly seeded where the lanes finish exactly as expected: lane 4 wins every heat, lane 5 is second, and so on. This meet maximizes the amount of competition between participants, the amount of clear water (in the aggregate), and results in the shortest possible timeline (especially if mixed genders and age groups are used). Meet B is randomly seeded: you might have 20-something speedsters like Paragon Jazz next to 80-year-old great-grandmothers. In terms of competition and timeline, this is a much worse scenario. It also results in less clear water in the aggregate, though obviously some people (the aforementioned paragon, for example) might be quite well off. Neither meet will either happen, but the more accurately a person's seed times predict his/her actual performance, the more like situation A the meet will be. Sandbagging moves the situation closer to B. MOST split requests are not of the type that I think you mean, where someone does the first part of the race fast and then goes easy. The vast majority are normal swims where someone realizes that the first part of the race was actually a pretty competitive swim, and the swimmer is unsure of swimming that shorter event in competition. So s/he will submit a split request. The only time it costs is that of the volunteers who have to process the request. Actually I do sandbag, quite often. But that's very sweet of you. Unfortunately, "Paragon of Swimming Virtue" doesn't quite fit in the character limit for user titles, so I had to abbreviate. Does "sandbagging weasel" fit, then? Just wondering... :bolt: Disclaimer: the above statement was meant as a joke. And there was no moral judgment intended by any part of this post. If you believe you detect a whiff of moral certitude, consider instead the possibility that it is time to do laundry. No puppies were harmed in the construction of this post.

Female POV here... It is very difficult to swim in lanes 1 or 6 next to a heat of guys. You boys create a lot more turbulence than the ladies. At a recent meet, I was in the 50 bk, in lane 1, swimming against all men. It was rough, I about drowned from the wake that was created. My time stunk, but I'm not blaming only the wake, others factors contributed to my bad swim, I would just like to compete in fairer waters. Hope that makes sense. I'll admit that I've sandbagged, but only because of having back-to-back events at small meets. Needed to space out 3 events. Not sure how much it helped me, still died after my third swim. Yikes. My only question is - is there a term for people who enter way too fast of a time at a meet like Nationals, get seeded in the "championship" heat of their age group and swim a ton slower in all their events? Myself or other swimmers in that age group could have benefited from being in that last heat? I'm guessing it's impossible to make everyone happy, but I still love USMS soooo much. Have a great weekend, swimmers!

My only question is - is there a term for people who enter way too fast of a time at a meet like Nationals, get seeded in the "championship" heat of their age group and swim a ton slower in all their events? Myself or other swimmers in that age group could have benefited from being in that last heat? Dreamer?

Disclaimer: the above statement was meant as a joke. And there was no moral judgment intended by any part of this post. If you believe you detect a whiff of moral certitude, consider instead the possibility that it is time to do laundry. No puppies were harmed in the construction of this post. :lmao: Thanks for leaving the puppies out of it, Chris! As for the speculators out there wondering why more women aren't weighing in on this thread, I can't speak for them, however, I will admit, I have been :Lurking: . Why? Let me count the ways! 1. Getting shredded in the tech suit thread, after Nationals, last year. (I don't particularly enjoy it when the claws come out at me. I'm on the forums for enjoyment and to learn.) 2. Getting shredded for the appearance of my posts, which, by the way, will not be changing. Ever*. (*Unless Jim takes my font, color, and Smilies away!) I think I'll join 'Fly in :popcorn:. 'Fly, shall I bring the :chug:? Cheers! If anybody really cares about my opinion (and, I'm sure none of you really do...), send me a PM. Meanwhile, those of like mind out there on the forums, you know who you are... ;)

I don't think I've made myself clear enough here: I posit that "sandbagging" is neither immoral or unethical or unsportsmanlike (or un-anything-else-you-high-horses-think-is-good) for the very precise reason* that none of us, not a single darn one of us (no matter how "right" we think we are and how "wrong" we think others are) truly knows how their performance will pan out and therefore how close their entry time will be to their final time. I enter my meets as soon as I know I can go to the meet, often weeks in advance. Even though I try to enter likely times, life happens either before the meet or during the meet and my result differs what whatever projected reality I had used to create the entry time. Stop getting your boxers in a wad over this issue and JUST RACE. Fort, while I have come out in favor of mixed gender and mixed age heats, I completely understand your point about racing next to big guys with big wakes, especially at taper meets. Like Greg, I had the fortune of racing next to guys like Jeff Dash or Paul Smith ... I'm a big guy myself, but those guys put off some serious wave action. If the meet directors aren't following the rules to seed women appropriately, you gotta do what you gotta do. Kurt, I still think you should bag on Auburn and come to Mission Viejo instead. I'm definitely not going to be in Auburn, but knowing I'd have a good race on my hands in Mission might motivate me to get there. * see U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums - View Single Post - No sandbagging: It's the law

none of us, not a single darn one of us (no matter how "right" we think we are and how "wrong" we think others are) truly knows how their performance will pan out and therefore how close their entry time will be to their final time. Come now, this is overstating it by quite a lot. There will always be uncertainty, but I can predict with some pretty decent accuracy (generally within a second) what my time in a 100 will be in a given meet. I have seen the meet reports in your blog. You know what time you've done, when you did it, and what suit you did it in, and probably what your training had been like when you did it. Are you saying now that you have NO earthly idea at all what you will do in a given meet? Sandbagging isn't a failure to nail your time exactly (or coming "reasonably" close). It is entering a time that you know is slower than you will be so that you can control the time of your swim or get more clear water or both. Invoking uncertainty on this matter is a cop out. It's like saying, since your speedometer isn't certified to NIST standards, you can speed as much as you want. Because, who knows? Even if your speedometer says you are 20 mph above the limit, maybe it is wrong, maybe you aren't REALLY speeding. And it seems pretty clear from Kurt's original post that he must have entered a time much slower than he expected to go so that he could swim significantly earlier than otherwise. I don't know the specifics but I'm betting it wasn't a matter of 5-10 seconds slower than he thought he would go. The sandbagging police are simply not that strict, for one thing. (Disclaimer: still not judging.)

Pretty harsh. Sorry, my intent wasn't to be so harsh. I save that for the Wookersteradingdong. I respect Fort and her swimming ability. I think she would have swam as fast in lane eight as lane four. Why then break the rules? Sandbagging has a negative effect on other swimmers, and it is breaking the rules.

I have seen the meet reports in your blog. You know what time you've done, when you did it, and what suit you did it in, and probably what your training had been like when you did it. Are you saying now that you have NO earthly idea at all what you will do in a given meet?No, he's really screwed up some swims. But he's also buried some events out of nowhere, and the variability makes his the best blog for meet results, IMO.