DQ'd

As for the backstroke turn stuff mentioned above, these days in USAS, we've been told to look for two separate calls: Failure to initiate the arm pull -- such as rolling over onto your stomach, keeping the 'freestyle' pulling arm outstretched and kicking or floating before either starting the pull or the turn Failure to initiate the turn -- such as rolling over, pulling with the 'freestyle' arm and then kicking/floating towards the wall before doing any noticeable turning movement These are both hard calls to make. Yes, that's what I've been told. Kids sometimes try to skirt around number 2 by taking an long exaggerated pull to get them closer to the wall so that they're not just kicking in. I've never heard of the term "hesitation" though, so Laura's DQ seems pretty BS. There are rules for S&T judges too. One is that you have to write to the rule. I've seen referees pocket supposed DQs at summer league meets (judge couldn't explain the DQ properly, etc.), but I've personally never seen this happen at a masters meet.

let's not allow any one to turn over ANY where in BACK stroke... Worked when I was a kid! Sounds good to me!

Senior Olympics ... This is a little disturbing to hear, given that you will often see a person here and there who gets a top 10 time at the senior olympics. To be sure, this was a local event which, as far as I know, was not sanctioned or recognized by USMS, and thus cannot produce a top 10 time. A few of the state games and the national games are recognized. HOPEFULLY the officiating is better ...

I got DQ'd in a 200 BR race for dolphin kicking before initiating my pull. I thought it was a bogus call, as I separate my hands (slightly) before kicking. It really cheesed me that nobody was calling the elite guys (Gangloff, Kitijima, etc.) for this sort of infraction and I had seen plenty of videos where they clearly violate the rule. I was so upset that I scratched the rest of the meet. I (mostly) got over it pretty quickly. I got handed a little yellow piece of paper for the DQ that looks like a speeding ticket. It was on USA-S letterhead. I guess the judge didn't have his USMS pad with him. I've kept that as a memento... Wasn't there a line in Shawshank Redemption about everybody in jail thinking they're innocent? Seems like us swimmers are the same way when it comes to our DQs...

I've been both on the giving end (as an S&T judge) and receiving end of DQs and neither is pleasant. As an S&T judge at (generally NTS) age group meets, I always try to focus on finding clear infractions and on giving the swimmer the benefit of the doubt. I'm not trigger happy, but I also don't think it's fair to the swimmer to let them 'get by' with something that is clearly against the rules; better for them to get called in an early or mid-season meet than to perpetuate something illegal throughout the season. While it's never fun to give a DQ, I generally find that most of the kids 13 & up know when they've done something wrong; many of the savvier 12 & unders do, as well. To me as a judge, it's a sign of a good call if the swimmer admits knowledge or, at a minimum, recognizes that they did something wrong. That doesn't happen 100% of the time, but a lot of times. As a competitor, I think I feel what a lot of people are alluding to above: you only get angry when you're convinced you were right. Many times I've been DQ'd and the vast majority of those I've known what I did. One DQ, though, still sticks in my craw from Junior Nationals in 1983 because I was having the meet of my life and got DQ'd for a 1 hand ***-free transition turn. My time would've put my in the finals. I didn't have video of this, but everyone who watched the race on my team said I was fine. Given that my turns are generally the slowest and most deliberate parts of my races, doing a 1 hand touch was really unlikely for me. I still feel like it was a wrong call. Yeah, still hanging onto that pain almost 30 years later! As for the backstroke turn stuff mentioned above, these days in USAS, we've been told to look for two separate calls: Failure to initiate the arm pull -- such as rolling over onto your stomach, keeping the 'freestyle' pulling arm outstretched and kicking or floating before either starting the pull or the turn Failure to initiate the turn -- such as rolling over, pulling with the 'freestyle' arm and then kicking/floating towards the wall before doing any noticeable turning movement These are both hard calls to make. Like the suggestion to remove the dolphin kick on the breaststroke pullout, it'd be a lot easier if we just went back to the old bucket backstroke turns -- touch on your back, turn, push off on your back. Heck, we've gotten rid of the 'cheating suits,' let's get rid of these cheatin' rules. Where are the swimming purists when we need them?:worms: GREAT POST! I agree with all you wrote. The backstroke turn rules both just baffle me as to why they are even rules. They give no unfair advantage to anyone breaking them, in fact, if you turn over and "coast", you are at a huge disadvantage. The fact that they are such subjective calls, as an S&T, cause a LOT of difficulty at almost every age group meet I work, for the swimmers, and the officials.

I can see where you're coming from, but on the other hand the stroke is backstroke. The rules allow you to turn onto your stomach, but only when this is part of the turn. If you turn over too soon and kick into the wall it's not really backstroke anymore. Whether or not this confers an advantage is immaterial. I agree with you. At the same time, then let's not allow any one to turn over ANY where in BACK stroke... Worked when I was a kid!

Has anyone challenged a DQ with video in either masters or USA Swimming?

I think they should post your time and splits even though you get DQd.To not just adds insult to injury. This is easily debatable. Your performance was invalid since you were DQed. For example, if you false started, all of your splits are bogus. In the end, this is configurable in most meet management software (including Hy-tek). In my experience, the default is typically to list splits, but not final time, for DQs. (But the final time is usually in the splits.) -Rick

Neither the USMS nor USA Swimming rule books have anything that prohibits the use of video to protest a DQ. They also don't prohibit the use of clipping a coin, a psychic, or using a Ouija board, to protest a DQ. My understanding is that the interpretation of the rule books is generally that, unless something is allowed by inclusion, then it is regarded as disallowed by default. It actually turns out that video _is_ referenced in the USA Swimming rulebook in several places. Video is allowed for: Backup timing (with video at 100 frames/second) Relay take-off confirmations (at 100 frames/second) Open water finish line That's it. -Rick

This is easily debatable. Your performance was invalid since you were DQed. For example, if you false started, all of your splits are bogus. In the end, this is configurable in most meet management software (including Hy-tek). In my experience, the default is typically to list splits, but not final time, for DQs. (But the final time is usually in the splits.) -Rick Yes,it is not totally valid as you were DQd,but splits are still useful information.