Butterfrog

The way I look at it, arguing against the modified fly kick (bullfly) would be no different than arguing against any other kick pattern for free but a 4-beat. In free you can kick whatever you like, including dolphin.

I have been trying to figure out a way to incorporate a whip kick with dolphin kick. Maybe at turns or if I go vertical. It is a hard transition for me but I would think there is somewhere that a whip/frog kick could fit into the stroke without using it the whole race. Anyone ever experimented? In a 100 fly I change to butterfrog when/if I start to lose timing on fly.I find the transition easy.My tips for learning butterfrog were cut from the column due to space considerations.I think the easiest way to learn is to start swimming BR then begin using a fly pull after a few strokes.Since the pull is longer than in BR it is easy to begin to add a dolphin kick at the point the second dolphin would be in fly so that you retain 2 kicks,one whip and one dolphin.Especially on a 200 fly use the momentum from the whip kick to "ride the glide."

Someone mentioned that using a frog kick is slower, which doesn't surprise me, of course. But is it true in all cases? My anonymity kung fu is strong! :bliss: What I meant is that the typical butterfrogger's breaststroke kick is slower than the typical butterflyer's dolphin kick. So the butterfrogger is not gaining an unfair advantage over the butterflyer. This is a generalization of course.

Someone mentioned that using a frog kick is slower, which doesn't surprise me, of course. But is it true in all cases? Example: I'm a breaststroker. I have a strong breaststroke kick, which is faster than all of my other kicks, including dolphin kick. My 200 BR (2:33 SCY) is faster than my 200 FL (2:36). The difference is even bigger in LCM where I don't get as many walls. I'm sure the best way to improve my 200 FL in the long term is to learn to swim it better (cf. the video thread in which I am trying to do so). But now I'm curious: would I be faster in the short term with a frog kick? My butterfly is faster than my butterfrog for about 75 yd.After that I am better with a whip kick.Test it out for yourself.

I think the easiest way to learn is to start swimming BR then begin using a fly pull after a few strokes.Since the pull is longer than in BR it is easy to begin to add a dolphin kick at the point the second dolphin would be in fly so that you retain 2 kicks,one whip and one dolphin." Thanks - I have not received the magazine yet and I will read it when it comes. I started thinking about adding a whip kick into the turns or out of the turns when I was trying to figure out how to change from the level hand touch to a split touch in a way that would make a meaningful difference. I don't know if it is just old habits, but whip kick with butterfly stroke feels kind of like trying to pat my head and rub my tummy. I will try again and see what happens.

I think that your 200 butterfrog time should only count for a 200 butterfly time if you make the request in writing to the meet referee before the end of the meet. :-) -Rick

The way I look at it, arguing against the modified fly kick (bullfly) would be no different than arguing against any other kick pattern for free but a 4-beat. In free you can kick whatever you like, including dolphin. I disagree with this. Freestyle is just that: free style. Butterfly, on the other hand isn't a free style. It originally diverged from breaststroke as a separate stroke due to the over the water recovery. You can do whatever you want in freestyle. You can do whatever you want in backstroke, as long as you stay on your back. Butterfly and breaststroke are much more stringent in what is and what is not allowed. So, having a different kick requirement doesn't seem strange to me. That said, I still think using a frog kick in fly should continue to be legal in masters.

It is with some trepidation that I start this thread as I expect that many if not most Forumites will approach this issue with initial antagonism to my position in favor of butterfrog as explicated in the "both sides of the lane line" article in the current issue of SWIMMER but I ask Y'all to approach it with an open mind.(I expect antagonism as even my friends refer to my beloved and beautiful breaststroke as"evilstroke so I shudder at the initial reaction to butterfrog.)But look at the argument:George argues against it on historical and aesthetic grounds where as my argument is more practical.As to the aesthetic argument,what is uglier,both to the spectator and the participant than going vertical on butterfly. George you are a great swimmer and an inspiration,but when is the last time you swam a 200 fly at a meet? I would lie if I was saying that I understood your intro. So pardon me if I end up *far in the left field*. If you're asking for our opinion on alternate ways of performing the butterfly, then I am for it 100%. Butterfrog is one of them. Fortress once mentioned about the idea of performing kicking during fly events. This is also very smart. Last meet (last weekend), among the 80males that were there, only 4 attempted the 200m fly. Anything that can help increasing the participation to fly events should be considered in my humble opinion.

Someone mentioned that using a frog kick is slower, which doesn't surprise me, of course. But is it true in all cases? Example: I'm a breaststroker. I have a strong breaststroke kick, which is faster than all of my other kicks, including dolphin kick. My 200 BR (2:33 SCY) is faster than my 200 FL (2:36). The difference is even bigger in LCM where I don't get as many walls. I'm sure the best way to improve my 200 FL in the long term is to learn to swim it better (cf. the video thread in which I am trying to do so). But now I'm curious: would I be faster in the short term with a frog kick?

Speedy or not? Some swimmers are faster with frog/whip kick in every stroke. My backstroke is much faster with a whip kick and double arm stroke. It all depends on the swimmer. George Park's basic argument is that "swimming has evolved into four distinct strokes," and there is no need to accept a variation of a stroke (butterfrog). Furthermore, "why should Masters be allowed to change the rule to suit themselves?"