Freestyle body rotation/getting power from the hips

When I swim freestyle I have the very clear perception that rotation contributes to stroking power, but can anyone offer an explanation of how rotation gets translated into forward propulsion? Or is perception being fooled by synchronization? Is it possible that rotation merely positions the limbs into a good position for effectively applying force with the limbs? Perhaps the perception of generating power is useful enough in itself as a feedback mechanism? Solar, I'm only guessing but I suspect that it would only take a minimal amount of force to stop your rotation, which would indicate it isn't very powerful. It looks to me like you are performing the rotational equivalent of starting a swing into motion without touching the ground. Until I can come up with a plausible explanation of how rotation translates into propulsion I will be skeptical of the theory that power is generated by rather than transmitted through the core when rotating. I find these questions fascinating, it would be great to get a better grip on this stuff!

Power from the hips comes from perfectly timed rythm between your kick and your arm pull. Betsy is right, the rythm center is at the hips and it is this core connectivity that develops maximum efficiency and speed. Does this make sense? Yes it does make perfect sense. I'd certainly push it to the extend that body rotation alone, just by itself, also generates a lot of power. That point of view goes against Maglischo`s take on the matter, but I think that he's completely wrong on this topic. The body, by itself, can rotate without the assistance of any anchor points. Research on this topic is seriously lacking in the swimming world (hence Maglischo's faulty take), but I feel (even though I haven't made any research yet) that scientific data exists in the world of figure skating. In other words, I do believe in inside-out swimming very very strongly, and I think I could probably, with little research, prove its existence. Did a very little non prepared test the other day. Jumped in a pool, with a pull buoy, arms tightly held up my chest. With no previous practicing whatsoever here's the body rotation I could achieve. Far from a figure skater but with minimal practicing, I should be able to self rotate, no anchor, very very quickly, without disturbing the body frontal axis that much. YouTube- Demonstrating Body Rotation Note: Between second #15 and 18, I think I achieved a couple of rotations that were fairly clearn (although frontal axis wasn't kept perfectly straight).

Grant Hackett is, in my opinion, an example to avoid. Very few of us can achieve this level of EVF whilst maintaining such a longish glide in the front. I don't know. I find it still pretty difficult to get a good EVF when swimming normally, however, when doing a catch-up drill (isn't that sort of the definition of a "long glide"?) I find it trivial to drop the hand and raise the elbow. Skip

I strongly disagree with you here, but I guess it's a matter of interpretation. I was being a little sarcastic. The way I feel about popov's technique though is that it is perfect, but to try to emulate his movements might not work out for everyone. Anyhow I have probably studied popov's technique more thas Touretski. Grant Hackett is, in my opinion, an example to avoid. Very few of us can achieve this level of EVF whilst maintaining such a longish glide in the front. I am with you on this, even though his technique is cool to watch, it's just something very peculiar to him. One thing I've been noticing is that it's much easier to initiate solid EVF if I prolong (glide) an unloaded catch. To not have a dead spot (active catch) in addition with EVF, it's more difficult for me. Not sure if it's a physical or technical challenge but it's tough to do both.

I think Popov is a terrible example for mortals to follow. First of all he is 6'6" and 200lbs, secondly he had extreem shoulder flexibility, and most importanly he had the time to practice 10,000 yds for a workout. I strongly disagree with you here, but I guess it's a matter of interpretation. In fact, among most top level swimmers, I believe that Popov's technique is probably what suit us, mortals, the most. One key element in his technique is that he limits the dead spot in the front, which allows for a completely unloaded catch to be taken. Grant Hackett is, in my opinion, an example to avoid. Very few of us can achieve this level of EVF whilst maintaining such a longish glide in the front. Do I need to strighten out from waist to leg? Here's a clip: YouTube- 2010_02250003.WMV No I don't think so. In fact, from the little bit that I can see from this clip, and if you're confirming me that this technique has no side effect on your shoulders, this form is near (very near) perfection. Here.... this short clip here shows a very healthy free style technique. Notice how the left shoulder articulation gets locked on left arm entry. He is very clearly putting some of the downward body rotation weight on hand entry catch. Given the locked shoulder, that works perfectly. Very easy to achieve with a wetsuit too. Notice how any dead spot is being eliminated. The EVF level is kept well within what we Master can achieve. In fact, on his left arm (he's a right side breather), there's no trace of EVF at all. And it's fine. Free style doesn't have to be made symmetrical. EVF level can (and in my humble opinion *should*) vary depending on the role given to each arm. That of course, doesn't apply to pure bilateral breathers (which are kind of rare among males at this level). Alexander Popov YouTube- Alexander Popov Freestyle Stroke Technique

I think Popov is a terrible example for mortals to follow. First of all he is 6'6" and 200lbs, secondly he had extreem shoulder flexibility, and most importanly he had the time to practice 10,000 yds for a workout. Solar, Do I need to strighten out from waist to leg? Here's a clip: YouTube- 2010_02250003.WMV

LindsayNB... at least one way that rotation leads to propulsion... stand in the pool, stretch both arms forward laying hands on surface, now rotate body, notice one hand comes back without 'pulling' whatsoever (imagine a catch was involved here) and the other hand goes forward (for more reach for the catch)...thus, propulsion merely from rotation without even 'pulling' the arm back....the arm/hand can 'passively' produce propulsion with the energy of body rotation...rotation itself induces pull as we know from starting a pull-cord lawnmower, there is more force through body rotation than simply pulling straight back with the arm...of course, this is the back muscle vs shoulder muscle strength thing

I don't know. I find it still pretty difficult to get a good EVF when swimming normally, however, when doing a catch-up drill (isn't that sort of the definition of a "long glide"?) I find it trivial to drop the hand and raise the elbow. Skip I have to agree here. That's this timing thing I was referring to earlier. So you may be right. However, you have to understand my position. The most common flaw I need to fight against day after day, is dead spot in the front. Very very often, people wait then apply hard pressure in a sudden way. Then the elbow automatically drops due to lack of shoulder strength to support this pressure whilst being in a weak position (arm extended in the front). Then they totally miss the catch so not able to engage the lats. That brings their arm near exit... slip slip all slip. Day in day out. I think that you're right. Hackett probably spends most of his time swimming in a way that is safe for his shoulders. That said, he can probably stand a much higher level of pressure compared to most of us. Again I agree that by delaying the catch a little bit, thus allowing the body rotation to bring the body in a more flat position (not talking about staying flat here, it's a transition flat position) it's far easier to bend the elbow. Most mortals may develop undesirable side effects in attempting to swim like this though.

Solar, I'm only guessing but I suspect that it would only take a minimal amount of force to stop your rotation, which would indicate it isn't very powerful. It looks to me like you are performing the rotational equivalent of starting a swing into motion without touching the ground. Hi Lindsay, I was rotating at 's for the pulling aspect. For those who swim a free style technique that allows them for this, same principle than what is occurring when you sink the head of an opponent whilst playing water polo. That's on the hand entry. Creates a little bit of lift forces surrounding catch phase. But not everyone swim like this. Most prefer to not benefit from this lift force in favor of extending little more in the front (thus missing the timing that could allow for some body rotation **weight** to be used for lift). But the lawn mower analogy applies to most free stylers, no matter the technique. - - - Here mate, Popov is demonstrating the two very clearly. On catch, he sinks the head of an opponent whilst being in a rough water polo game, and of course with the other hand, he's starting a reluctant lawn mower. YouTube- Alexander Popov swimming technique Note that the **weight** that can be put on catch can be handled in a much more subtle way by good free style specialists. For instance, I believe that better and safer EVF could be achieved by locking the shoulder articulation little more (as opposed to letting it all loose). With the shoulder locked this way, some of the downward body rotation weight can be used instead of the force that the limb could produce alone. Lots of triathletes swim this way. They are not overly bothered by the fact of being limited in their movement due to wet suit. They just lock the shoulder articulations and apply body weight on downward body rotation whilst (of course) using upward body rotation to start this lawn mower whilst pulling. And of course, they put even more weight to lift their head to look in the front, just like demonstrated early in Popov's clip.

I like this explaination. I am using a pull bouy to work on body rotation. I think I am achieving added "leverage" when as my body is finishing it's rotation to the right, my catch is starting to the left, and the two opposing forces accentuate propulsion. Is this similar to anyone else's experience? Thanks, Georgio :bolt: