I have been following a few training logs here and I note a heavy emphasis on "race-pace" training with ample recovery time. I have to assume this works well since the people posting are swimming far faster than I. so here is the question: when performing a high intensity set like that, is the emphasis on maintaining the speed, taking as much recovery time as you need to keep up the speed, or should you maintain the selected turn-over time and struggle to maintain the speed in the face of increasing fatigue? If you are finding a pace too steep to maintain the speed, do you slip to a slower pace, or should you just take a break and restart the set at the same pace after a bit of recovery? I am specifically refering to speed sets done at 90 percent of race-pace or better.
The same question should be applied to stroke technique: as I fatigue my stroke tends to break-up a bit (Ok: a lot). In training should I select paces that allow me to always maintain a "perfect" stroke, or should I push into the "red zone" where I am fatigued enough that my stroke is getting ragged? BTW: my "ragged" stroke is quite a bit faster than my technical stroke, but it really is quite "splashy". My daughter actually calls me "Dr.Splashy" when she teases me.
Former Member
Increasing speed over all distances can only be measured in the context of the specific swimmer.
How is it difficult to beleive that if you increase your speed in the 50, it is impossible to carry a portion of that speed increase into the longer distances? Again, I am NOT saying it's a direct linear relationship.
It is difficult for me to believe that if Grant Hackett stopped training like Grant Hackett and started training like Cesar Cielo that his 50 time would improve and his 1500M time would improve.
Every pool race is made up of 1 or more 50's strung together. The 50 is the building block for EVERY pool event. So improving your 50 time (be it an all up sprint or holding a faster pace) is the only way to swim faster over longer distances.
LOL, really? That has nothing to do with sprint training vs traditional training. If what you originally meant to say was that to swim faster you have to swim faster, well I will be happy to agree 100% with that.
I am in full agreement with everyone on race pace training. It is SO frustrating knowing this will help my swimming and get me closer to my goals, and then show up at workout day after day to sets with 10 secs rest no matter what the set is. Both the coaches and lane mates complain if they get too much rest! "oh you got 20 secs rest on that, we need to adjust the interval."
I know this is very common for other teams and many swim on their own to train properly which really diminishes the social aspects of swimming. Maybe for those in the PV area, we should set up workout team with this type of training? What do others PV swimmers think?
It is difficult for me to believe that if Grant Hackett stopped training like Grant Hackett and started training like Cesar Cielo that his 50 time would improve and his 1500M time would improve.
Well actually Dave Salo at 'SC said Ous never trains for 1500's in workout by swimming 1500's...He strings together 100's trying to hold :58's
...RACE PACE...
Well actually Dave Salo at 'SC said Ous never trains for 1500's in workout by swimming 1500's...He strings together 100's trying to hold :58's
...RACE PACE...
Yeah, so? Are you contradicting me, or randomly quoting me?
I am in full agreement with everyone on race pace training. It is SO frustrating knowing this will help my swimming and get me closer to my goals, and then show up at workout day after day to sets with 10 secs rest no matter what the set is. Both the coaches and lane mates complain if they get too much rest! "oh you got 20 secs rest on that, we need to adjust the interval."
I know this is very common for other teams and many swim on their own to train properly which really diminishes the social aspects of swimming. Maybe for those in the PV area, we should set up workout team with this type of training? What do others PV swimmers think?
You sound like you swim for the same team I do. The lack of race pace work is extremely frustrating. Whenever there is any thing 'fast', the interval doesn't change and in some cases the interval is even shorter to compensate for all that 'rest'
Me neither. I think we are both on the same side actually. Speed work is important and we are quibbling over technicalities in what was actually said.
Oh, I got lost, thought we were just making fun of Paul and had abandoned the swimming aspect.
FWIW, following my annual August/September deconditioning ritual at Lake Tahoe, I spend the first 4-6 weeks of my season getting back into a semblance of shape. Most of this swimming is technique work, some short aerobic sets, and so forth.
From mid October through July, I would say that 90% or more of my swimming is either getting prepared to swim fast (aka warm-up), swimming fast (25s through 125s, with moderate or lots of rest), and recovering from swimming fast (active rest or warm-down).
I rarely swim more than 3,000 yards in a workout, and not more than 15-16,000 a week. My speed days consist of as much yardage as my recovery days, because of the "active rest" swimming I do.
I try to lift weights every other day, shoulder pain permitting.
YMMV, of course, because, as Fort would say, I am an "evil-stroker".:banana:
I am in full agreement with everyone on race pace training. It is SO frustrating knowing this will help my swimming and get me closer to my goals, and then show up at workout day after day to sets with 10 secs rest no matter what the set is. Both the coaches and lane mates complain if they get too much rest! "oh you got 20 secs rest on that, we need to adjust the interval."
I know this is very common for other teams and many swim on their own to train properly which really diminishes the social aspects of swimming. Maybe for those in the PV area, we should set up workout team with this type of training? What do others PV swimmers think?
I hear this ("that's too much rest") sometimes at my team practices. However, our coach is reasonably good about getting in some quality work. We even do fast stuff off the blocks now. One thing I'll do on occasion if I want to take a generic aerobic set and make it a quality set is to wear fins. Then my speed is up and I get plenty of rest. Of course, this may piss off your lane mates. Or maybe they'll understand what you are trying to accomplish.
It would be fun to have a "race pace" workout group, but the logistics would be difficult with the PV area being so large.
But if your top speed is higher, you can manage the same performance in a fatiguing distance as someone with less speed but more endurance, because you have more speed in the first place to give up to fatigue.
I think I concur with this possibly up to a 500 but it is absolutely no guarantee in a 1000 and certainly not a 1650 or longer OW races, in the least. If you consider a 1650 is 33 X 50 then someone's top speed in an all out 50 is pretty much irrelevant. I say this in regard to folks who can do a sub :26 50, not someone who can go a :21 versus someone who can only muster a:40 on a 50 but has crazy endurance.
"that's too much rest"
Here is my response to that phrase - "if you think you are getting too much rest, you are swimming too slow. You should be begging for more rest."
Not sure who is on what side of the argument between gbrain and Paul - but in my experience, the limiting factor for getting faster for most senior level swimmers (not Masters) is lack of speed and not endurance. It is much easier to give a natural sprinter some endurance than giving the distance swimmer actual speed. Let's say you want to break 20 minutes in the 1500 Free -- or hold 1:20s -- you will have to be able to hold about 1:15s or faster in the 400 -- you will have to go in the low 20s for the 200 -- you have to go 1:10 or faster in the 100.
Somebody mentioned Hacket - 14:34 in the 1500 -- or 58.3. His best 100 is 50.2 or 51.7 from a push. His average 1500 pace is 12.7% slower than his max 100 pace. If your best 100 is 1:10 and you have Grant Hackett type of endurance, you can hold 1:19s.
I trained with Mellouli (well not with him - more behind him) in 04 -- he has great natural speed - he swam on 200 Free relays at NCAAs.
