What should USMS do about the suits?

How do you know? I was under the impression that the current international masters consensus was pro-suit. Do you know what the other federations recommended? (Or was your "they" meant to refer to FINA?) Midas, I meant the delegates did not vote on the compromise proposal that was submitted to FINA. That just came out of committee and went directly to FINA. I agree with Jim that those swimmer that never compete shouldn't really care or vote on what we wear. I understand Chris' point about potential competitors or theoretical "barriers to entry." But the idea that a workout-only swimmer with a purist bent could conceivably dictate what I compete in bugs the hell out of me. My guess is that most workout only swimmers don't care one way or another, so maybe you can take comfort in that. Obviously even occasional competitors should have a say. As far as the international consensus, here's what we know: (1) We (USMS) wanted a compromise, (2) at least a majority voted in favor of an outright suit ban. From that we can infer that somebody else proposed/favored an outright ban over a compromise or "anything goes." And I would suspect that at least a few of the other major international masters federations were represented at that meeting. I don't know how voting works, though (do we get a larger vote based on our relative size, or is every federation, regardless of size, on equal footing). I wish this information was made public and frankly its unacceptable that it isn't. This is our organization, isn't it? In any event, I think we can infer that there is not a pro-suit consensus in the international masters community. The FINA Bureau, I understand, is not made up of member federations but is instead made up of (you guessed it) bureaucrats (and ones with a terrible conflict of interest since they are paid in part by sponsorships by the suit manufacturers). We are not going to get more of a consensus view of the swimming community than what came out of the FINA committee. Having said that, I think despite the wording of the choice, many people probably believed it to mean that they would abide by the FINA decision. So even among the hard core we are about 40/30 split in favor of a suit ban with a large possible undecided contingent.

I guess, but in my view that would be to do what the Masters Committee (the swimmers) recommends. Their only other criterion for deciding is cow-towing to the suit manufacturers. Even tech suit enthusiasts should be embarrassed by that. Weren't we all complaining about how Speedo's influence over the suit rules was abhorrent? Speedo got pistol whipped this by this last ruling, which was only fair. All the suit companies should play by the same rules. If B70, arena, tyr can't have their full body suits, then speedo shouldn't either.

I'm certain Midas agrees with this part. It isn't what he was alluding to, however. Speedo, if I remember right ('cause it's been a long time now) was complaining about the polyurethane suits coming into vogue and they were standing there with their mostly "woven" suit, behind the blocks, trying to figure out how to slow down the competition. :violin: Because of Speedo's attempts to control the rules, (to affect other suit makers), now look what we may get - nuttin honey. That's why I love typing things out...ha. That was my point, but couldn't get the words out.

Fans of tech suits: Don't despair, just be patient. I did a little literature search on the current state of research on superhydrophobic textiles. There is a lot happening there! Some is exactly what I thought might be involved - the use of nanaoparticles that end up on the surface of textile fibers, drastically reducing the coefficient of friction. There is a lot of research being done on this, and eventually I expect it will lead to suits that are just as good as the ones being banned, and virtually indistinguishable from today's textiles used for allowed suits. There was research reported in this month's Physics Today about modifications to the surface shape at the all-important viscous boundary layer that can reduce the friction even further. There are a lot of steps between today's research and tomorrow's ultra fast suits, but I have no doubt they will occur. Buoyancy may be a different matter, but I suspect there's a way there too. I will maintain again that once the technology cat is let out of the bag, you can't get it back in (unless we stop wearing suits altogether :afraid:). Today's suits being banned are just the fruits of the first wave of technology being applied to the fabrics. There will be more waves, and the current research base makes it obvious to me that they will succeed. It's not an un-natural thing either, as there are superhydrophobic plant surfaces, where the plant has evolved the property as part of its natural evolutionary process. I sincerely expect there to be a time when people look back and wonder why we bothered to ban today's suit technology, when it will come back anyway. It is not just the materials used that determines how low the friction is, it is the shape of the fibers, the structure of their surfaces, etc. The use of polyurethane and neoprene are just the simple, first order, techniques available to make suits faster. This area of research is important to more fields than just swimming (which is probably the least important), and I have no doubt it will bear fruit. I firmly believe fast suits will be back. It will just take a little while for the research to transfer all the way to production.

Fans of tech suits: Don't despair, just be patient. I did a little literature search on the current state of research on superhydrophobic textiles. There is a lot happening there! Some is exactly what I thought might be involved - the use of nanaoparticles that end up on the surface of textile fibers, drastically reducing the coefficient of friction. There is a lot of research being done on this, and eventually I expect it will lead to suits that are just as good as the ones being banned, and virtually indistinguishable from today's textiles used for allowed suits. There was research reported in this month's Physics Today about modifications to the surface shape at the all-important viscous boundary layer that can reduce the friction even further. There are a lot of steps between today's research and tomorrow's ultra fast suits, but I have no doubt they will occur. Buoyancy may be a different matter, but I suspect there's a way there too. I will maintain again that once the technology cat is let out of the bag, you can't get it back in (unless we stop wearing suits altogether :afraid:). Today's suits being banned are just the fruits of the first wave of technology being applied to the fabrics. There will be more waves, and the current research base makes it obvious to me that they will succeed. It's not an un-natural thing either, as there are superhydrophobic plant surfaces, where the plant has evolved the property as part of its natural evolutionary process. I sincerely expect there to be a time when people look back and wonder why we bothered to ban today's suit technology, when it will come back anyway. It is not just the materials used that determines how low the friction is, it is the shape of the fibers, the structure of their surfaces, etc. The use of polyurethane and neoprene are just the simple, first order, techniques available to make suits faster. This area of research is important to more fields than just swimming (which is probably the least important), and I have no doubt it will bear fruit. I firmly believe fast suits will be back. It will just take a little while for the research to transfer all the way to production. Good for women -- though the current FS-Pro technology is actually pretty good IMO -- but not so important to men since there isn't much material left to modify. Of course, any "superhydrophobic" treatment you describe would most likely cause even a textile to fail the permeability requirement. Who says the suits work due to reduced coefficient of friction? I always understood that to be one of the least important factors. I believe buoyancy and compression are more important, but that's just my opinion. Buoyancy is out, the requirements become more strict, but I think the materials research you describe may be misplaced wrt to swimming faster. Rather than decrease friction, increase "stretchiness" and durability. Or, rather than waiting for faster suits, one could just try training harder/smarter...:)

The thing to think about when considering the votes of the international masters community is that I believe (not 100% sure but pretty sure) that USMS is the only major masters governing body that is independent of the elite national governing body. We tend to go the same direction as USA-S but we don't have to hence the discussion we're having here. So basically the same organizations that voted for the elite suit ban from other parts of the world are voting the same way on masters because, well, the boss told them to.That's how I read the situation anyways.

Desyphers Your post just reinforces why FINA should issue an all out ban on so called tech suits and why they should have never been allowed in the first place. In fact, it’s been quite well known for over 100 years that people can swim faster by using some kind of “technology” like simple flippers and paddles and new suit materials are just another form of mechanization. Accordingly any “new superhydrophobic textiles and the surface shape at the all-important viscous boundary layer” and their application to faster suits is nothing but an academic exercise in hydrodynamics and nothing of any real virtue for athletic swimming. Furthermore, setting new records through the use of "technologically assisted" swimming is viewed as being pretty "Hooo Huuum" and considered as more of a cheat sheet approach rather than a reflection of the actual skill of the swimmer. In fact, many question whether the new records should even be counted as legitimate times. The whole tech suit issue has become an utter monstrosity (and getting even worse with every new product that comes out) and grotesquely side tracking the whole objective of the sport. As I’ve said many times, FINA should just TIVO back to the rules for suits in effect in the 1970s and 80s -and leave them that way. Case closed. D2

Watching the World Cup races - all tech suits across the board (Well until Phelps shows up at least ) - People can tell me whatever they want. Swimmers like the Tech suits - if it was up to the swimmers, they would keep all current suits. Since Masters swimming is really run by the actual swimmers and not officials and coaches ..... I don't know.... As long as they are legal, people at the elite level HAVE to wear them to be competitive (unless they are Phelps, I guess, and maybe even then--how fast would his 200 Free be if he wore a jaked?). I don't think it says anything about whether they like or want to wear them. We have no way to know. What I do know is that I am an actual swimmer and I can afford the tech suits but I don't want them (at least, not if the "elites" don't wear them). I know many swimmers on this very message board who feel the same way (and many that don't).

Watching the World Cup races - all tech suits across the board (Well until Phelps shows up at least ) - People can tell me whatever they want. Swimmers like the Tech suits - if it was up to the swimmers, they would keep all current suits. Since Masters swimming is really run by the actual swimmers and not officials and coaches .....

Watching the World Cup races - all tech suits across the board (Well until Phelps shows up at least ) - People can tell me whatever they want. Swimmers like the Tech suits - if it was up to the swimmers, they would keep all current suits. Since Masters swimming is really run by the actual swimmers and not officials and coaches ..... I am not completely sure how USA-S works at the convention; I do know that there are many swimmers there who are delegates. I presume they have voting rights and some input into legislation? If the swimmers are so pro-suit, why did USA-S vote for an early implementation? I guess to have the whole season in the same suits, but they didn't need to use FINA-approved suits in SCY. Going only by the reactions of the swimmers I know personally around this area, I don't see nearly the same level of emotion -- one way or another -- about the suits as I do in masters. Maybe it is just a characteristic of the age bracket -- the quintessential shoulder-shrug of the teen -- but the swimmers mostly seem interested in clarity and fairness and could take or leave the suits themselves. There are some exceptions of course: the early adopters who liked the suits, and those who didn't like having to mess around with them. (There weren't many of either.) Coaches are different, most I know are fairly strongly against the suits. Probably understandable: the suits represent an element over which they have less control than training & meets, and many coaches are control freaks. Parents are different, too. Some will not like the expense, while others will like the opportunity to buy their child an advantage over the competition. I suspect the latter outnumber the former.