What should USMS do about the suits?

What WE may (and should) get is what our representatives voted for--parity with the elites and age groupers on this particular issue. Our representatives/delegates didn't vote. (And our informal poll shows the opposite.) I didn't really understand the DQ point either. Just because a swimmer is not Top Ten or "elite," doesn't mean they don't want to have official times. Was it the "masters committee" that made the recommendation? I seem to recall it was some other committee, but am probably misremembering.

There was an informal vote taken at one of the House of Delegates meetings during convention. Wasn't really whether or not should tech suits should be allowed or not - just when implementation would take effect following adoption from another legislative body, USA-S or FINA - I don't recall. What I have a challenge with is the fact that if you don't compete, I believe you should not get any kind of vote. If all you're doing is working out, regularily or otherwise, and never competing in pool events why would you even care what others wear while they compete? I also believe that the vote taken at convention was influenced by non-competitors and that if their votes were eliminated (both sides - yay and nay) the vote would have gone closely the other direction.

Our representatives/delegates didn't vote. (And our informal poll shows the opposite.) I didn't really understand the DQ point either. Just because a swimmer is not Top Ten or "elite," doesn't mean they don't want to have official times. Was it the "masters committee" that made the recommendation? I seem to recall it was some other committee, but am probably misremembering. Sure we voted. The FINA Masters committee is comprised of representatives of various masters organizations from around the world, including USMS. USMS definitely had a voice (and representation) at that meeting. In fact, USMS proposed "the compromise" to the FINA Masters committee. It seems that didn't fly and at least the majority of represented organizations voted for the suit ban. I'm sure you don't mean to imply that an informal poll on a website frequented primarily by hard core masters swimmers is in any way representative of general USMS membership views or even the views of those USMS members who compete.... or were you talking about the informal poll that Jim mentioned? In any case that one was about when the ban should take place, not whether, right? Looking at said informal poll above (and acknowledging that it is not in any way scientific), about 70% of the respondents seem to favor a suit ban in one form or another. FINA, USA-S and the "Masters Consensus" all favor the ban... And DQ'ing doesn't work. We all seem to agree on that. Maybe having a separate scoring division for technical suits would work? That would split up the competition, though, and maybe make it less fun for everybody.

Looking at said informal poll above (and acknowledging that it is not in any way scientific), about 70% of the respondents seem to favor a suit ban in one form or another. FINA, USA-S and the "Masters Consensus" all favor the ban... I read the poll differently. I read it as 41% favor the ban (at least by way of following the elite and USA-S decisions), 31% say leave it as is, and 27% haven't decided since int'l masters hasn't decided - yet. And that is not really a decision on their (the respondents) part. What if int'l decides to leave it as is?

(And our informal poll shows the opposite.) It does? If you are referring to the poll in this thread, the 'against suit' vote is split between 2 or 3 responses. The first two (FINA or USA-S) are to all intents and purposes identical and clearly represent a vote against the suits; right now that is 41-42% of the vote, compared to 31-32% for the suits. The remainder will do whatever FINA Masters decides, and they are leaning against the suits at the moment. So you could even argue that it is roughly 70-30 against the suits. What I have a challenge with is the fact that if you don't compete, I believe you should not get any kind of vote. Disagree strongly with this statement. Delegates are not supposed to vote for themselves but for the interests of their home LMSC, including current and potential competitors. (Whether they do this is another matter.) Heck, I even voted against my personal preference in that particular case. But I do agree that there should have been some legit polling of the USMS membership, and that one of the questions should have been about whether a person had competed or was likely to do so in the future. For all the good it would have done, since FINA clearly is doing what it wants on this matter, regardless of USMS' position.

The remainder will do whatever FINA Masters decides, and they are leaning against the suits at the moment. How do you know? I was under the impression that the current international masters consensus was pro-suit. Do you know what the other federations recommended? (Or was your "they" meant to refer to FINA?) Midas, I meant the delegates did not vote on the compromise proposal that was submitted to FINA. That just came out of committee and went directly to FINA. I agree with Jim that those swimmer that never compete shouldn't really care or vote on what we wear. I understand Chris' point about potential competitors or theoretical "barriers to entry." But the idea that a workout-only swimmer with a purist bent could conceivably dictate what I compete in bugs the hell out of me.

and 27% haven't decided since int'l masters hasn't decided - yet. And that is not really a decision on their (the respondents) part. Well, the poll question is "what should USMS do." So if you favor an international standard (as I do, because I like the idea of international Top Tens and WRs), then what USMS should do is whatever FINA eventually says FINA-member masters federations should do. FINA isn't perfect, but it's what we have. If the poll question had been, "what should FINA do" for masters, some of those 27% might have had an opinion. There again, though, some of those opinions might have been more about the value of uniformity between masters and open rules than about what suit rule would actually have been ideal.

Quote: Originally Posted by jim clemmons What I have a challenge with is the fact that if you don't compete, I believe you should not get any kind of vote. Disagree strongly with this statement. Delegates are not supposed to vote for themselves but for the interests of their home LMSC, including current and potential competitors. (Whether they do this is another matter.) Heck, I even voted against my personal preference in that particular case. I agree that the voting needs to be in response to the overall interest of the majority, I just don't think we have a process of actually determining what that desire is so everybody's guessing. I believe if you throw out the non-competitors opinions though, we'd have a different result. At least that's my guess.

Essentially, the FINA Masters committee "punted." The USMS has more than 50,000 swimmers belonging to the organization, but only a small percentage of the members compete at the elite level. Statistically, roughly 10 percent will have a chance at being a top-10 swimmer in their age group. The actual number is probably closer to 5 percent-or-less since champions within the USMS such as Erik Hochstein, Rowdy Gaines, Jenny Cook and Ahelee Sue Olsen, generally dominate more than one event. Masters swimming is intended to be both a sport and a recreational activity. The majority of Masters swimmers are not there for record-book acknowledgment. Therefore, any FINA restrictions should take into account their particular goals and purposes for swimming. writer makes some great points ande

I surely hope FINA does the right thing here. The "right thing" is only in the opinion of the beholder.