Hip driven or shoulder driven? The reason I ask is that I'm a shoulder driven sprinter but have a more hip driven stroke in the 200.
I've been trying to find some speed from a hip driven stroke but so far have just not been able to come close (24.3 scy hip driven vs 23.1 shoulder driven). Is one inherently better than the other? If so, why?
Can one utilize both techniques depending on the race? Is it possible to have an effective shoulder driven sprint stroke and an effective hip driven distance stroke?
Former Member
Mattson
I do not want to become faster I just want to have the best technique I can. A lot are striving to be the fastest and believe the kick is the most important thing in swimming. The maximum a kick can offer is as some say 20%. I think it is a whole body effort.
Hip driven is a term that someone has invented, to explain a fully coordinated swim sroke. Some will say it is shoulder driven. They of course are trying to say correct the hip motion and you will swim better. Some are saying it is the kick that does this.
What I do when I am helping someone I start with the glide off the wall. Then the no splash hand entry. Extend let the hand drift down to the catch and my goodness the shoulder rolls as the hand reaches the catch. Wow before you know it the hips have moved automatically (this is what they call hip driven). The legs are kicking when doing the six beat kick because the body rolls the legs do not just kick staight up and down.
The hand and fore arm press against the water and grab the imaginary wall and push against this wall and the body moves forward. Dont let your elbow drop or you lose your hold on that wall. Keep pressing on that wall until your hand touches your thigh(the finish). A no splash exit from the finish and repeat.
I am not going to say exactly how you get the arms over the top of the water other then I lik a bent arm recovery that I use for marathon swimming or a more straight arm aproach that I used in sprints (1954) you can see this in my avatar.
I think you're right about coordination. It has to do with rigidity. Being hip-focused, mentally, means being stiff enough to rotate as a unit.
Let me add my $0.02:
I am a very "hip-centric" swimmer. I don't try to roll as a unit, rather the mental imagery I use is that of a dropped cat landing on its feet. Cats initiate their body roll by starting to rotate the lower body at the hips first and the upper body is just slightly behind the lower. At least that is how it feels when I am feeling very good about my stroke.
I saw a video somewhere of Natalie Coughlin explaining that she thinks in a similar way, but she explained it as raising the one hip as the lead motion. Unfortunately, I can't remember where I saw it.
I've also found that by concentrating on my hips as the thing that initiates my stroke, I can swim forever, but if I think about my arms in this way I tire much quicker. I think this has to do with the relative muscle masses of the shoulders vs. the core muscles. That, plus it puts less stress on my shoulders and makes EVF much easier and less painful. (EVF is a trick I added this year - zowie!)
However, I would be willing to bet that swimming is one the verge of a better understanding of technique as it applies to the various distances. What will shake out of this is that the longer the distance, the more the hips are focused on and the shorter the distance, the more the arms are focused on. Furthermore, I'd bet that very short distances will have NO front quadrant swimming and that as the distance gets longer, the more you will see some front quadrant technique. (NOT CATCH-UP.) The "one-size-fits-all" approach that we've seen - be it copying a certain swimmer's technique regardless of the distance or subscribing to a rigid school of thought - is over.
I saw a video of an Australian who is coaching at Texas describe his belief that for drop-dead sprinting you should use a rotary motion with an almost downward scooping motion as the arm enters the water. This sounds just about perfect to me. If I were a drop-dead sprinter (no frickin' way), that's the technique I'd be aiming for, although I'd also have the name of a good shoulder surgeon handy. Again, I can't remember the coach's name or where I saw it, but I'm sure someone knows.
-LBJ
I wonder if "hip-driven" just means coordinating the entire body during the swim. I think that there's indeed a lot of it. Coordinating the entire body around the FreeStyle driving shaft.
Bringing the focus away from upper body down to mid body to insure better integration of all its components maybe? Something like that I guess.
Swimming with an all wheel drive transmission instead of a front wheels only? I donno.
Let me add my $0.02:
I am a very "hip-centric" swimmer. I don't try to roll as a unit, rather the mental imagery I use is that of a dropped cat landing on its feet. Cats initiate their body roll by starting to rotate the lower body at the hips first and the upper body is just slightly behind the lower. YouTube - Cat Flip
I saw a video of an Australian who is coaching at Texas describe his belief that for drop-dead sprinting you should use a rotary motion with an almost downward scooping motion as the arm enters the water. This sounds just about perfect to me. If I were a drop-dead sprinter (no frickin' way), that's the technique I'd be aiming for, although I'd also have the name of a good shoulder surgeon handy. Again, I can't remember the coach's name or where I saw it, but I'm sure someone knows.
-LBJ
It was Brett Hawke, who is the head coach at Auburn. He is talking about the "straight arm catch"
Another question I have, when it comes to the freestyle is the recovery. How high out of the water should people recovery their arms?
Should they be really high out of the water or just enough to clear the water to get back to the front? And does the recovery swing out to the side or circle directly over the top?
Any thoughts would be great!
I just watched a video on history channel, Marilyn Bell swimming accross Lake Ontario. Her elbows were high and hands almost touching the water, Her body rotation was quite astounding to me, she used a six beat kick. Although I remember when I swam in heavy seas I would rotate my whole body in order to breathe without lifting my head. I will see if I can download her swim stroke.
Another question I have, when it comes to the freestyle is the recovery. How high out of the water should people recovery their arms?
Should they be really high out of the water or just enough to clear the water to get back to the front? And does the recovery swing out to the side or circle directly over the top?
Any thoughts would be great!
BTW, that's why you were in the top 10 and not #1, you needed a few kick sets to speed up I have the greatest respect for those who managed to find their way to the top of the food chain, no matter when that happened. Being the best (or among the bests) has never been easy and certainly never will.
I truly believe that by putting a lot of emphasis on technique, at a time where several others would only focus on developing fitness, George made a very solid point. In that, he may be seen as a precursor.
That being said, I think it's only fair to state that the face of swimming has changed considerably in the last 40 to 50 years, just like with any other sports (Ice hockey, American Football, Track and fields etc). What was good back then may not be sufficient now.
Nowadays, it is fair to state that you have to have both an outstanding technique and an outstanding level of fitness across the board in order to try and beat Michael Phelps. And any swimmer training with this goal in mind and thinking for just one minute that it is possible to do so by neglecting any aspect of swimming will undoubtedly fail.
I did practice kicking on occasion. When ther was no alternative, if the pool was so full there was no lane to train in I held onto the wall and kicked furiously for about 10 minutes.