I think we can all be certain that the suits are here to stay -- love them, hate them, it does not really matter -- Speedo, TYR and the others will not allow the suits to all over sudden disappear.
But, we as Masters swimmers have to make a decision about our own reasoning to compete -- why do we compete in swim meets ?
There are many reasons - social, participating in a sport beats the hell out of watching one on TV and so on --- but for me, 2 of the main reasons are the competition aspects. We obviously compete against other swimmers --- but more than maybe many other sports, we compete against ourselves. I can tell you my best 100 Free from every season over the last 30 years (10 of which I did not compete).
I have used most of the suits and did very well -- I set some personal bests and also achieved some record swims, but I have no idea how my times really compare to other seasons. I can keep telling myself that all that speedwork and lifting paid off - but I just don't know.
I like to give a golf comparison -- let's say you have a home course and you always shoot in the low 90s going from the Blue Tees --- well guess what, if you are going from the white tees you will probably average high 80s and going from the red you may get down to the mid to low 80s. But you are not a better player because of it. The LZR seems to be the "white tees" and the new Jaked suit may be the "red tees".
I think we really have to make a decision now to what matters more -- your personal records and history of swimming or the competition against other swimmers ? For me, this may change from meet to meet - but I must be able to stay honest with myself and be able to compare my times -- I do not want to be cheating myself.
Old generations suits (Fastskin Pro) only for: all major Masters meets (individual swims) except for Worlds. That means, I am ok to lose a few places in a meet, in order to know what my time really means. I could just go really old school -- but I think the older generation suits are pretty equal to shaving -- and they allow you to be "shaved" and swim fast in season, which is a huge plus.
LZR / Blue70 for: relays, Worlds and maybe some USS meets, if I am going for a time standard. I want to give any relay my fastest time possible - I swimming Worlds to win the title, so if others use the suits, I will have to do the same - if I go to USS meets, I may use them to get into the finals or to make a time standard for a big meet.
It may take some adjustments - but I think it will work --
Who is with me ?
Guys ( and girls) - it's a discussion forum. I only express my very subjective opinions and try to see what other people think on the same subject - nobody said anything about world peace and nobody is losing any sleep over this.
About the progress argument --- swimming is different than cycling and tennis and many other sports. You are racing against the clock as much as you are racing against other swimmers. I can swim a 50 Free in my pool and compare exactly against the 50 Free Mike Ross did last week and compare it exactly against the swim I did last year. There are not many other sports where you can do that. I have no idea if Rafa Nadal is playing better this year than last year. But I can tell you exactly that Bousquet swam a 21.53 last year and now swam a 20.94 - I don't think he took it easy last year.
So if I am want to place as high as possible at Nationals and swim the fastest possible time, I will run to my bank and send 400 Euro to Italy and pray that the Jaked will get here in time - because people are not just dropping a few tenth they are dropping seconds - and I don't see that as a bad thing - that is the price of staying competitive in the current situation. I actually thought about it - but I just came to a different decision.
The most common feedback I get from experienced swimmers when they try the Blue 70 - a big smile and "this should not be legal".
With the time trial in cycling, it is just you and the clock. Cyclists or their sponsors spend a good bit of money on the most aerodynamic equipment available for such races, including top of the line racing wheels.
You are to be admired for your decision. It actually takes some discipline on your part to have arrived at such a decision. I just think it is all a personal thing and there is no ''right" answer.
I think the Jaked is so much faster based on 2 things -
- the reports from Europe are just beyond anything we have seen (the Breaststroker from Holland droppig 1.5 sec in the 100 in a time trial compared to the LZR - people dropping 3-5 sec in the 200
- I have worn the Blue 70 and the LZR - both are fast, but for different reasons. Looks like Jaked merged the two -- compression, material and design.
Elise -
The cycling time trial is always on a different course - and I believe even the track cycling is very much based on the particular track.
Fortress - you are correcting me only on a mistake, on the other issues your simply stating a different opinion, which makes this whole discussion interesting. I do fail to understand why you are very sensitive about being judged while maintaining a blog ???
I understand what you mean about objectivity. That is the beauty of pool races as compared to triathlons where times can be affected by the course as well as the weather conditions. Swimming, however, is not completely objective because there is the factor of how fast a pool is. Wouldn't you say that a 20.9 done in a pool built in the 1950s would be faster than the same time done in a state of the art pool?
I think the problem here is that some don't like the idea that swimming has become like other sports where somebody will win based on superior equipment. Well, swimming lost its immunity a long time ago. Did it start with the aquablades in the 1996 Olympics or back in the 1970s when lycra suits came out?
My point is simple, if you are trying to convince people that the suit is not magic and doesn't swim itself down the pool (as the anonymous people you talk with believe) you can go ahead and move on from that because nobody actually believes that. This issue extends beyond the fringe that you want to place it.
As for my psychoanalysis: the first time you ever blasted me on this forum it was when I called you out for complaining about swimmers who dedicate, in your opinion, too much time to the sport. I sensed the same defensiveness then that I do now. But I only know you from this forum and woulnd't pretend that it is any close to an accurate portrayal of who you are. So if my comments bit you in anyway, sorry.
I'm not sure I'm following you at all ... the above quote and your prior post are unclear ... are you saying my "anonymous sources" do or don't think the B70 makes them swim faster? I thought I had said that I believe that it does, and that they believe that it does ... it's just a matter of how much benefit it provides. I'm not really trying to stake out any fringe position to further my argument. I'm not sure you've grasped my argument anyway.
I've spoken with many FINA ranked swimmers (and others) about the suit, same as you. I just found it odd that your sources were automatically credible, but mine weren't. Sorry if that seems defensive to you, but you seemed unnecessarily dismissive to me. And apparently to Kristina.
I am not defensive about my use of the B70. I've always been perfectly upfront about using it and enjoying using it. Unlike some, I swim in it guilt free. I do, however, admit to being somewhat defensive about people claiming that any and all improvement, including what I've done the last year, is due solely and completely to the B70. It's somewhat tiresome at this point. For me, continuing to swim in the B70 is comparing "apples and apples" and I will continue to use it as long as it's legal. I feel no need to go back to the Pro, though I did use my Pro at a meet this year.
As for blasting, it's an interesting choice of word considering that's what you frequently do ... Surely we can have equal opportunity blasting on the forum? And, yes, I agree, one's forum persona is not necessarily revealing about one's true personality.
Suit choice is not an entirely personal thing. My wife would pitch a fit if I spent more than $100 on a swim suit.
Haha. I have to agree with you on that. I cut out a few things I've been spending money on before telling hubby I wanted to order the suit.
If you men knew how much money we spend on getting our hair done and buying make-up, you would not feel bad about spending more than $100 for a suit.
I think the Jaked is so much faster based on 2 things -
- the reports from Europe are just beyond anything we have seen (the Breaststroker from Holland droppig 1.5 sec in the 100 in a time trial compared to the LZR - people dropping 3-5 sec in the 200
- I have worn the Blue 70 and the LZR - both are fast, but for different reasons. Looks like Jaked merged the two -- compression, material and design.
Fortress - you are correcting me only on a mistake, on the other issues your simply stating a different opinion, which makes this whole discussion interesting. I do fail to understand why you are very sensitive about being judged while maintaining a blog ???
Ah, I see, I guess that is what I had heard about the construction ... 3-5 seconds in a 200 over and above what they've swum in a LZR? That's pretty stunning ... Certainly can see why that kind of time drop would raise people's hackles.
I was actually also correcting you for flatly stating that the blame/fault/responsibility, in fact, lies with "all of us" masters for wearing the suits. Many squarely refute this. By definition, then, your statement was objectively incorrect. You overreached by attempting to impose or extrapolate a subjective feeling you have onto everyone else by use of the words "we" and "us" instead of just sticking with "I.". I understand that you personally feel that way. But you can always hang up your LZR and B70, rather than asking others to do so or telling/informing them the situation is their fault.
The tech suit debate has largely ceased to be very interesting. As others have noted, everyone has long since staked out a position. Perhaps the Jaked adds a new twist to the analysis, but, as noted, as yet, it hardly applies to masters swimming, the topic of this thread.
As for my blog, I don't see your point. You think people keep training blogs to be judged?
Paul:
I don't know about this talk of bastardized strokes, Paul ... everyone does things differently. No right way to do things! As for the "take it out hard, the suit will get you home," nope, I have not experienced this phenomenon. I still die at the end of a 100 fly just as I always have and my split differential is still the same.
Leslie, I agree with Skinner in his assessment:
"A swimmer can be very successful with the straight-arm option in SCY because the actual time spent swimming as opposed to turning was very small (cost issue). That changes dramatically in LCM. Enter the suits and their effect on metabolic cost—it lowers the cost substantially—and suddenly swimmers can sustain straight-arm technique easily over a 100m long course. This past Olympics was a testament to that fact. You used to see the odd high-elbow swimmer in the thick of the 50; now you don’t. They used to be in the thick of the 100; now they’re rare. You used to have 200-meter swimmers competing in the 100m—and in many cases winning that event—but not anymore. 100m races are dominated by straight-arm, 50-meter guys."
Here's the entire article which I found to be very interesting:
www.swimnews.com/.../6624
again the root of all of this evil is the mighty $$$$$$$$. does anyone think that the makers of these suits give a sh*t about the integrity of the sport or the records of the past swim champions? nope. they just want their money.
And I blame Speedo. They fired the opening shot in this war and they deserve all the blame, IMO. See the other thread I started about this.
this forum blasted Vlad P for doping yet all those that blasted him wear tech suits. is there a difference? which form of cheating gives a better time drop, PEDs or tech suits? arent we all cheaters?
so i think its over. is this progress? can you build a fence around progress and limit it? prob not. let it go. let it go down this path. its the new culture of sports and the world we live in.
ITS OVER FOLKS.
we'll all be dead soon
There is a big difference between tech suits and PEDs in the rule book and that is about all we have to go by. There are very few cheaters, but many opportunists.
FINA blew the whole tech suit issue. Someone should have stuck with the standards that they had in place previously and perhaps should have had a little more foresight on additional rules like suit stacking. FINA sucks and they obviously cracked to corporate pressure. We are just living through a transition period. You can either take advantage of the loop holes in the rules and set some records that might not be broken for a long time or you can do the right thing and use suits that will be legal under the new FINA standards that are not yet fully in effect. I think it says a lot about the athletes and swim programs that are taking advantage of this transition period (at least the recent record setters and Auburn). I didn't think it a month ago, but given the results with the Jaked recently I think you might have to put an asterix next to Auburn's win at NCAAs since they seemed to be the only team wearing Jaked.
They have been saying it is a new culture of sports that we live in since whenever I can remember and probably long before that. I think it is called progress. Progress with a few hiccups along the way, but not the end of the world.
Tim
I didn't think it a month ago, but given the results with the Jaked recently I think you might have to put an asterix next to Auburn's win at NCAAs since they seemed to be the only team wearing Jaked.
I disagree. There should be no asterisk. Yes, Auburn was the only team to wear the Jaked suit, but is there any evidence any other team even tried to get their hands on the Jaked?
FINA sucks and they obviously cracked to corporate pressure. We are just living through a transition period.
How soon do you estimate before the transition period is over and FINA no longer sucks? :D
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