Use Of Paddles & Flippers VS Tech Suits

Sigh Really confused how you can compare the first with the others that you have listed but in every 'basic' issue you mention with the exception of the first one, there can be a measurable direct or indirect impact on YOU. In the case of tech suits you just seem to either a) not get it or b) not care that there is NO measurable impact on you. You have stated many times that you a) don't compete, b) don't have an interest in competing, c) don't train seriously for swimming d) don't have an interest in training seriously for swimming and e) have only worn a tech suit once (not sure if that was even in the water). So I am once more giving you the chance to answer (but as in the past you will probably ignore) the simple question 'why do you care?' I know why I care and I know why a lot of people here care, both in favor of the suits and against them but I just don't get why you care so much. There is no meaningful effect on your life if someone wears one or not. So, please, just answer the question. It's a simple one but it's one that you continue to avoid responding to. Hey Pwolf66: My immediate comment regarding your post is please use paragraph spacing (by pressing the ENTER key twice) instead of "running on" all your different statements in one block of text. First, I am not the only person (either swimmer or nonswimmer) who has given an opinion on this subject -mainly whether FINA's approval of tech suits is a highly discriminate form of allowing mechanically aided swimming devices. Furthermore, why does a person have to actually be a competetive swimmer to be qualified to have an opinion on this volitile subject? Most people who watch football, basketball, or baseball aren't players either, but they certainly have strong opinions. Just listen to the "chatter around the water cooler" on a morning after a game and you'll hear plenty of "Monday morning quarterbacking". Finally, the USMS board can get pretty boring without a hulaballoo about something so my comments do have the socially redeeming value of livening things up. :banana: Dolphin 2

D-2: It's fine with me for you to make comments,it's a free country(mostly.) I think that you should note that while some people share your views on suits,no one yet has shared your views on paddles and fins(except for those who say a separate division is OK.)I think this really qualifies as a:dedhorse:.

about what? oh yeah, the state of men's college swimming. oh noes....that's a blatant instigation...that's my job!

I like my fins for pulling. I like my paddles for finding slippage and splashy entry...that's about it. Goggles may have revolutionised the sport but at $13 for 3 pairs at costco...it's not quite the $ hit as a top suit. That said IDC about whether there are suits at masters meets...if grown adults want to spend thousands a year to delude themselves about how fast/efficient they are, then that is their call. I do think suits should be restricted for children and young adults so that the less fortunate may still be able to play on a level surface...although likelihood is if the parents can pay for swim team, they can probably afford a suit...but is it a necessary thing to have in age group? Yes, life is not fair, life is hard, life kicks you in the groin many, many times...life always wins. However, sometimes we can act to help remedy situations where unfairness may exist. Soup kitchens, battered womens shelters, no euthanising animal pounds, or maybe by not using PEDs in a sport/league without testing to come expose you (COUGH, COUGH)... :bolt:

If swimmers can pull substantially faster with paddles like this than without I usually explain to them that they most likely have a tendeancy to drop their elbow when swimming which the paddles will correct for...and that they will most likely never achieve substantial break throughs in their times if they keep pull everything (same for fin addicts)... fins allow race speeds and elevate the body position... I've been using fins, snorkel and paddles (finger loops only) for varying reasons connected to form and mechanics. My Alpha fins float me nicely and I pull way faster with them with or without paddles. I think there is also a decent "tail fin action" speed bonus that is amplified with good rotation... my :2cents:

Timm, I've swam with you a number of times and have noticed the classic "elbow" drop and hip over-rotation when your not using paddles...this explains why your faster with the gear. The work needed is finding the same angle of attack on your catch that the paddles overcompensate for...one thing I'd suggest is taking the wrist straps off (it will force you to use much better technique because if you don't they'll fly off)...I would also encourage you to use them a little bit every workout but slow down and pay attention to what is happening vs. use them for speed. Not to diss the thread topic, but it seems very tired....been there, done that a million times....so I'll be selfish and respond to Paul. Hey Paul, thanks for the tips. I did around a 400 loosen down swim after my run/abs workout at the gym tonight. Right after I started, I thought of your comments, and really tried to get my elbows high. The people in the hot tub must have thought I was throwing my arms out or something. I wished I had brought my paddles (they were in my car), but since I was already violating the, "No flip turns," sign, that may have been pushing it. I'll try the paddles/no wrist straps at workout tomorrow. I may get to the noon or evening workout at ASU on Thurs, are you coaching either?

That's old news...the latest was suffered from taking too many spin classes...and I'll leave it at that....but will say he's a wuss. Paul, I don't know your alter ego, but it sounds like he has done some pretty heavy duty damage to his pudendal nerves, which is enough to make anybody sulk for awhile in a dark closet. I know that when we had our pug Lefty neutered, it took him a whole day to perk back up. As far as this paddles and flippers debate goes, I would like to propose a solution that has some historical resonance to it for long time posters on this thread. I propose that USMS grant a special exception to any swimmers who learned how to swim competitively as adults, which, as we know, causes something of a disadvantage. Such swimmers should be allowed to compete with fins and paddles, the size of which shall be determined by a complex number of calculations that include overall body size and months after puberty at which said individual first learned the competitive strokes. We might even consider adding a special category for our Eastern European adult-onset swimming friends. Mr. or Ms. Dolphin 2, do you fall into this category? Send us your dimensions plus the months after puberty you began competitive swimming, and we can use you as a test case for the new order.

Quote from Bareblar02 “Suits are intended to increase the hydrodynamic characteristics of your body's shape, cutting out sharp edges and such to reduce drag, effectively just altering your body's form. Flippers and Paddles are both extensions, they are not alterations of an existing area of the body (excluding calling them feet and hands), they are longer and wider than any human hand”. The above quote shows how the debate over paddles & flippers VS tech suits is an example of a “Making distinctions without differences” and "Slicing & dicing and bending the rules". If paddles and flippers are considered an addition to the swimmer’s body, then a tech suit is also an addition –just with a different function of reducing drag by altering and modifying the swimmer’s personal body form and also increasing bouyancy. This concept could (and already is) also being carried to its illogical extreme. In the process of "pushing the envelope" by allowing the use of suits with enhanced streamlining and bouyancy characteristics, there is the risk that world's records could be nullified or voided because of all the variables involved. As I’ve said until I’m blue in the face, FINA should have never "twisted and contorted the rules like a pretzel" against the use of ANY “personally applied devices or substances” and this huge tornado of a debate would have never developed. :agree: Dolphin 2 Taking your argument to its illogical extreme (not a very long journey), all suits should be banned, including briefs, because they are all "additions." (BTW, I am no faster with paddles than without. The increase in DPS is almost exactly compensated by the decrease in turnover.)

I would be curious to see what various other technical improvements regarding drag reduction (swim cap anyone) have done over the years. Take the introduction of the swim cap and goggles - how much did drag reduction (and increased visibility) help improve swim times at the elite level. Did the swim community at the time (1970's??) have similar objections to the use of these items in swim competitions? I wouldn't know as these items have always been around while I have been swimming. In similar fashion, the newest generation of swimmers have always had some sort of tech suit (even first generation "fast-skins" and such) when they have been involved in the sport.

(BTW, I am no faster with paddles than without. The increase in DPS is almost exactly compensated by the decrease in turnover.) Chris...I find the same thing when I use the TYR paddles which I almost always use along with a snorkel (and fins at times) for longer recovery/aerobic swims. If swimmers can pull substantially faster with paddles like this than without I usually explain to them that they most likely have a tendeancy to drop their elbow when swimming which the paddles will correct for...and that they will most likely never achieve substantial break throughs in their times if they keep pull everything (same for fin addicts). I do however ues a small set of the old square paddles with holes in them and smaller fins for power work...something I picked up from Nick Brunelli years ago. The fins allow race speeds and elevae the body position, the smaller paddles allow fast turnover the combination is in my opinion far better resistance training than one can get in the gym. Also a lot of "fun" to use the same set-up with power racks, bungee's and/or parachutes. As for FINA allowing speed suits and not fins and paddles...I'm all for having an "open" division that allows anything to be used if thats what you want...why don't you petition them and try and get it going Dolphin2?