I am just back from the SPMA meet where all the top finisher were wearing the latest generation tech suits,mostly B-70s(or were named Jeff Commings.)I have here to for been in favor of the suits,but now I am not so sure.First,they eliminate the old bench marks.I went my fastest 100m BR in 5 yr in my LZR,but it was only .3 sec faster than I did untapered 5 wk earlier in my first swim in the LZR.So was my swim good or not,I'm not sure.Also,instead of focusing on technique or pace I found myself ruminating over aspects of the suits,how many more swims did the suit have,is it the right size,was the reason I didn't get better results from my B-70 because it was too big?etc.The B-70 has somewhat mitigated the "too expensive,not durable" problem,but for how long.
Lets say a company comes up with a suit that is much faster,say 4 sec/100.Further that it is very expensive(say $1000) lasts 4 swims and is very hard to make so that quantities are always limited and the fastest way to get one is to bid up to $3000 on ebay. Now lets say your nemesis has one,or that getting one is your best chance to get TT or AA or a ZR or WR,or that your child is close to making JO cuts,or finally beating his/her nemesis etc. Is it worth it and where does it stop?
I suspect the upper limit of material will be just above the LZR so it will stay legal.
And if that happens I really hope the swimming community greets the ruling with a universal Bronx cheer!
The B70 does NOT make any difference in performance whatsoever.
:LMAO:
I am currently on Day 4 of a Zpak of antibiotics. I have bronchitis and a sinus infection. I have also put in A LOT of yards this month and my usual dryland. I am completely broken down.
That being said I just got my B70 in the mail. I HAD to go to the meet today. I entered five events, swam the first 2, as I couldn't breathe very well, and went home.
Last month I swam 200 *** and went 2:fifty (my five key isn't working!). Today I went 2:39.
Last week I went 1:09 in my 100 back, today 1:06.1.
No, the suit makes no difference. Again, :LMAO: :LMAO: :LMAO: :LMAO:
LIST OF APPROVED MODELS: FINA will publish a list of approved models. The publication is without prejudice to the fact that criteria and conditions of approval must be effectively met by products in use
www.fina.org/.../index.php
Former Member
Hey my friend, I am amazed a swim dealer said our suit would be banned etc and to claim buoyancy astounds me. Our suit is well below the FINA levels (Old and new). If you wish to ping me a private message then I can call the dealer and ensure they have not been told something that is untrue.
Many thanks.
Deano
Confession:
I have been a bit cranky of late.
...
Against this backdrop, I see a suit that allows Karen to drop 11 seconds in the 200 ***, despite being sick (I know, there are all other kinds of fudge factors that could partially explain this drop, too, but the suit absolutely counted for a significant portion), and I know I would love to be able to enjoy similar drops myself, but the question of affordability and fairness both do seem to enter the picture against the dispiriting backdrop of my other sources of whining lately.
For all this, I apologize to one and all!
Really sorry about your troubles, Jim! Good luck dealing with them.
But I have to say...no way in the world does the B70 allow someone to drop 11 seconds (or even a significant portion thereof) in the 200. If so, please point me to the 200 world record that was broken by close to this amount in the summer games, or any other time post-LZR/B70.
Today at the end of a 2800-yard set, I pushed a 200 free in 1:54. I was pretty tired before this swim, and wearing Speedo Endurance briefs -- yet it was only 10 seconds slower than I did the 200 free in a meet one week ago while wearing a B70. I rested/tapered for the meet, too, and it was my first event so I was fresh. My experience doesn't come close to matching Karen's.
I looked at the analysis of the predicted vs actual times for the 8th place time at the 2008 US Trials, and the difference was about 1.0-1.5% (on the lower end of the scale for women, on the upper scale for men).
For a 60-second 100, that comes out to somewhere on the order of 0.5-1.0 sec per hundred. Now, that is for elite swimmers in LCM (and mostly for the LZR), so it might be different for masters swimmers swimming short course...but still. It also jibes pretty well with my own experience, pre/post-B70 racing and expectations based on improving times in practice.
0.5-1.0 sec/100 is pretty darn significant at the top level, and can certainly account for the pace of WRs being broken. But I also haven't really seen Beamon-esque performances being commonplace -- most WRs are being broken by incremental amounts, not astonishing chunks.
So maybe, in an odd way, it can make you feel better that you haven't been paying several hundred dollars for what is, at the masters level, really a relatively small improvement.
I was intrigued by your musings on the potential psychological effects of a B70 ban, the fact that this might burst a bubble that would lead to post-B70 blues. The plain fact is that, as masters swimmers, in many ways we are pretty much fighting a losing battle against time.
Though I'll struggle mightily against it, I have little doubt that in 10 years I'll be swimming more slowly than now. The B70 does little to change this fact...except possibly momentarily delude us users into thinking that we are swimming younger than we actually are.
B70 or no, I think part of (competitive) masters swimming is setting year-to-year goals that are challenging but realistic/reasonable. If the goal is to get faster in every event, year after year, that's fine...but you need to be prepared psychologically to live with the inevitable disappointment.
But as they say, getting older sure beats the alternative. :)
Good luck with your trials & tribulations.
Wow, now I've read it all, tech suits and the crumbling economy are somehow related. And now responsibility is the new self-righteousnes? This is insufferable. I'm sick of this whining on every post. This thread is about swim suits, not insurance companies, take it somewhere else please. There are a million blogs and sites devoted to these economic topics, there is one forum for adult swimming.
Sam and Geek: your Midols are wearing off. Time for an additional dosage.
Chris, as always, you are the voice of reason to which we should all aspire in our discourse. Even those who never whine except when whining about whiners they have whinily identified.
FINA Releases Information on FINA Bureau Meeting, Approves Speedsuit Restriction Proposal, Underwater Cameras Approved for Rome --
March 14, 2009
DUBAI, United Arab Emirates, March 14. DURING the FINA Bureau meeting held in Dubai this week, the international organization put in place some official speedsuit restrictions which are "to be immediately implemented."
Known as The Dubai Charter (full link to document below), the speedsuit restrictions will be phased in during a two-step approach. As previously reported, FINA held a Speedsuit Summit in Switzerland on Feb. 20. That meeting developed a set of restriction proposals that the Bureau has now implemented effective immediately until Dec. 31, 2009.
These are the elements implemented starting today:
a. DESIGN:
The swimsuit shall not cover the neck and shall not extend past the shoulders nor past the ankles.
b. MATERIAL:
i. When used, the material shall follow the body shape;
ii. The application of different materials shall not create air trapping effects.
c. THICKNESS:
The material used shall have a maximum thickness of 1 mm. The measurement method is in accordance with ISO Standard 5084 for textiles.
d. BUOYANCY:
The swimsuit shall not have a buoyancy effect of more than 1 Newton (100 gr).
The value to be observed applies to all swimsuits sizes.
e. CONTROL:
FINA has established its own independent control/testing programme. Scientific testing on thickness and buoyancy will be conducted by a neutral team led by Prof. Jan-Anders Manson, from the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (EPFL) and Laboratory of Polymer and Composite Technology.
f. CONSTRUCTION:
Any system providing external stimulation or influence of any form (e.g. pain reduction, chemical/medical substance release, electro-stimulation, or others) is prohibited.
g. CUSTOMISATION:
All swimsuits of an approved model must be constructed in an identical fashion with no variation/modification for individual swimmers from the samples submitted for approval. Any modification before use is prohibited; it is clarified that an adaptation of size does not constitute customisation.
h. USE:
The swimmer can only wear one swimsuit (FINA Rule GR 5.3).
i. SWIMSUITS TO BE SUBMITTED:
All swimsuits to be used during the period of application shall be submitted, even if previously approved. The only submission deadline under these rules is March 31, 2009.
j. APPROVAL:
Approvals issued under these rules remain valid until December 31, 2009. Manufacturers must indicate the approval on the product in use through a method to be implemented by FINA. The purpose is to check that the swimsuits used in competition are approved models.
FINA also went a step further to include a "permeability value" test that will begin as of Jan. 1, 2010.
PERMEABILITY:
In addition to the thickness and buoyancy scientific independent tests already included in the previous requirements, FINA will define the use of non-permeable materials based on a ‘permeability value' test. The non-permeable material can only be used for a maximum 50% of the total surface of the swimsuit for full-body models. For these models, the maximum surface of non-permeable material to be used on the upper and lower part of the swimsuit shall be respectively 25% on each part. Non-permeable material shall be distinguishable.
While the speedsuit rulings definitely took center stage at the Bureau meeting, plenty of other rulings were made on all aquatic sports. One decision that might actually have a bigger impact on the sport of swimming going forward than the speedsuit restrictions is the adoption of "underwater video judging system (used to confirm and/or overrule stroke infraction calls made on the deck)" starting with the FINA World Championships in Rome.
Here is the full release regarding the Bureau's decisions:
New Federations affiliated to FINA: Fédération Djiboutienne de Natation, Fédération Tchadienne de Natation and Fédération Centrafricaine de Natation. The total number of FINA National Federations is presently of 201.
- Swimming:
o new age limits for the FINA World Junior Swimming Championships (boys – 16-18 years old; girls – 15-17 years old);
o due to availability reasons, postponement in the introduction of the new starting blocks, which will only be used after the 13th FINA World Championships Rome 2009. In these championships, will be used the same starting blocks as the ones used at the 2008 Olympic Games in Beijing (CHN);
o introduction of an underwater video judging system (used to confirm and/or overrule stroke infraction calls made on the deck) at the 13th FINA World Championships Rome 2009;
o approval of the FINA World Swimming Calendar 2010-2013, including the December spot (on even years) for the FINA World Swimming Championships (25m) and the August period (in uneven years) for the FINA World Junior Swimming Championships.
- Open Water Swimming:
o Establishment of the dates of the 6th FINA World Open Water Swimming Championships in Roberval (CAN) – July 15-23, 2010.
- Diving:
o New location for the 2010 FINA Diving World Cup (to be hosted by the Chinese Swimming Association).
- Water Polo:
o Approval in principle of the organisation of a FINA World Water Polo Championships B, starting from 2012.
Synchronised Swimming:
o Establishment of the rules for the 2009 Synchro World Trophy (to be held in Montreal, CAN, from November 27-29), including a thematic duet, thematic team and free combination event and a gala show at the end of the competition. These new ideas are aimed to increase the spectacular aspect of this discipline.
- Masters:
o Establishment of the programme and dates (July 28-August 7) of the 13th FINA World Masters Championships, to be held in 2010, in Gothenburg and Boras (SWE).
- Upcoming FINA Competitions: Very positive and encouraging reports were presented by the Organisers of the next FINA major competitions: 13th FINA World Championships Rome 2009, 6th FINA World Open Water Swimming Championships Roberval (CAN) in 2010, 13th FINA World Masters Championships Gothenburg/Roberval (SWE) in 2010, 10th FINA World Swimming Championships (25m) Dubai 2010, 14th FINA World Championships Shanghai 2011, 3rd FINA World Junior Swimming Championships Lima (PER) 2011, 11th FINA World Swimming Championships (25m) Istanbul 2012.
- Proposal of rules changes for FINA Congresses: revision and approval of the proposals and amendments to the Constitution, General Rules, By-laws, Doping and Facilities rules, as well as Technical rules for each of our five disciplines (swimming, water polo, diving, synchronised swimming and marathon swimming). All this will be presented to the General Congress and Technical Congresses to be held in Rome this July with the occasion of the 13th FINA World Championships.
- Amendments to the FINA Swimwear Approval Procedures: the Bureau approved the "Dubai Charter" (see attached document) to be immediately implemented.
www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/.../20694.asp
