Clovis in 09??

Maybe West Coast folks are more inclined to put out the effort than East Coast folks? Just a thought - not saying East Coasters are lazy or anything like that so don't go off on me. :whiteflag: Maybe WC just bids more often than EC - still haven't seen an answer that delineates bid history to any degree. I think if the EC swimmers want it on the EC more often, they're going to have to come up with the possibilities and just bid more. No need to duck, Jim! We aren't even discussing politics! lol I understand your point. I can't speak for non-DC areas particularly. Jeff Strahota explained the problem we have in the DC area because of population density issues and lack of warm up pools. U of Md is an outstanding facility. Maybe everyone can warm down in the showers. I doubt it's laziness. At least in DC, we have a tradition of hosting the vast percentage of Colonies Zones meets in at least the last 5 years or so. NE Masters puts on a lot of meets. Their SCY meet at Harvard seems to draw about 800 swimmers or so. Maybe it's big enough?

I think this is superficially appealing, but is it wise? This isn't an electoral college. If we have 2/3 of the meets in central and western locations, doesn't that just entrench the western "monopoly?" West coast swimmers will be more likely to attend nationals, go every year, enjoy the benefits of high level competition, etc. (When I look at my age group, west coast swimmers seem to dominate. If they have easier access to the fastest pools and fastest meets, that's somewhat of an advantage.) I think it makes more sense to move the meet around fairly evenly, to the extent possible. Otherwise, in addition to fostering the west coast monopoly, east coast swimmers will be penalized with a greater travel/expense burden than their west coast peers. Nothing can be perfectly fair, of course, but, since we pay USMS dues and shell out big bucks for our hobby, it would be nice to feel the love too! Well, if 2/3 are held in the western and central US, that also appears to mean in this instance that 2/3 are held in the eastern and central US... Here's the list from an earlier post breaking it down: East coast Ft Lauderdale 1998 LC Baltimore 2000 LC Rutgers 2003 LC Savannah 2004 LC Ft Lauderdale 2005 SC Coral Springs 2006 SC Central Indianapolis 1998 SC Minneapolis 1999 LC Indianaplois 2000 SC Cleveland 20002 LC Indianapolis 2004 SC The Woodlands 2007 LC Austin TX 2008 SC West Coast Santa Clara 1999 SC Santa Clara 2001 SC Hawaii 2002 SC Federal Way 2001 LC Tempe 2003 SC Mission Viejo 2005 Lc Federal Way 2007 SC Mt Hood 2008 LC I think Minnesota and Texas are each a push for east and west coasters (Texas may be a little closer for the west coasters while Minnesota a little closer for the east coasters, but both are in about the middle of the country.) Cleveland and Indy are much closer to the east coast than the west. Yeah, there doesn't seem to be any northeast meets, but I have no idea why this is the case. Hopefully bids are not being ignored. It certainly appears that the east coast has received their fair share of the meets. I'm not sure if having most of the meets where most of the USMS members are located is strictly a superficially good thing either, but it's not really worth debating. There is no right answer to that question. I would say that the west coast dominance in your age group probably has very little to do with a possible national championship location bias and almost everything to do with the fact that there are just more west coast swimmers in USMS. As for the reason for the larger west coast participation in USMS, I bet it has to do with the fact that we swim outdoors year-round. Indoor pools are miserable compared to training under an open sky. Swimming in a heated pool on a cool, rainy day is actually kind of fun.

NE Masters puts on a lot of meets. Their SCY meet at Harvard seems to draw about 800 swimmers or so. Maybe it's big enough? Actually, I think the lack of Nationals in the Northeast is a big part of the reason NE SCYs is so big: for a lot of folks that is their season meet. (And Colonies SCYs is too close in time, otherwise, I think it would get more of those folks too. If it were much closer to Nationals I think it would be interesting to see if the turnout went up.) But I think New York is in the same boat as DC on pool space. Not enough warmup/warmdown space, even if there is room for 2 courses.

Well, if 2/3 are held in the western and central US, that also appears to mean in this instance that 2/3 are held in the eastern and central US... Here's the list from an earlier post breaking it down: East coast Ft Lauderdale 1998 LC Baltimore 2000 LC Rutgers 2003 LC Savannah 2004 LC Ft Lauderdale 2005 SC Coral Springs 2006 SC Central Indianapolis 1998 SC Minneapolis 1999 LC Indianaplois 2000 SC Cleveland 20002 LC Indianapolis 2004 SC The Woodlands 2007 LC Austin TX 2008 SC West Coast Santa Clara 1999 SC Santa Clara 2001 SC Hawaii 2002 SC Federal Way 2001 LC Tempe 2003 SC Mission Viejo 2005 Lc Federal Way 2007 SC Mt Hood 2008 LC I think Minnesota and Texas are each a push for east and west coasters (Texas may be a little closer for the west coasters while Minnesota a little closer for the east coasters, but both are in about the middle of the country.) Cleveland and Indy are much closer to the east coast than the west. Yeah, there doesn't seem to be any northeast meets, but I have no idea why this is the case. Hopefully bids are not being ignored. It certainly appears that the east coast has received their fair share of the meets. I'm not sure if having most of the meets where most of the USMS members are located is strictly a superficially good thing either, but it's not really worth debating. There is no right answer to that question. I would say that the west coast dominance in your age group probably has very little to do with a possible national championship location bias and almost everything to do with the fact that there are just more west coast swimmers in USMS. As for the reason for the larger west coast participation in USMS, I bet it has to do with the fact that we swim outdoors year-round. Indoor pools are miserable compared to training under an open sky. Swimming in a heated pool on a cool, rainy day is actually kind of fun. I was really just responding to your point about 40% participation justifying 40% west coast national locations. Nothing else really. I think everyone expects to travel for most big or nationals meets. I think it would just be a bit more fair to use an even geographic distribution to the extent possible (as I said). I think you probably just have more pools and more pool time out west. I'm not a huge fan of swimming outdoors myself. some girl: warm down is overrated. I'd love to have a meet in Boston.

I think you probably just have more pools and more pool time out west. I'm not a huge fan of swimming outdoors myself. Growing up on the east coast, I wasn't either. But now that I've been doing it for a year, I couldn't imagine going back. Again, we probably have more pools because we don't need to enclose them in a building. All you need is the space and a water heater and you're in business. I'm happy with the meets moving around the country. Except in very rare circumstances, though, unless I can drive to it I won't be attending. (I bet that mine is the majority view, too, though maybe not among posters at this board.) I don't care that much because I get plenty of competition at the Pacific Masters championship meets and I look to the top ten times as the true "championship" since even in a good year not nearly all of the best swimmers go to nationals...

some girl: warm down is overrated. I'd love to have a meet in Boston. Hot showers are where it's at. I think even the BU pool though had only a few extra lanes in the diving well (like 4) and Harvard only can run one SCY course, cause the warmdown lanes are shallow. Maybe MIT? But they never have meets there.

Growing up on the east coast, I wasn't either. But now that I've been doing it for a year, I couldn't imagine going back. Are you a backstroker though? lol You Pacific Masters folk are very very fast.

When would you put the open water swim? After? Does that discriminate against open water swimmers if it is after the meet is over with. By the way, Clovis is offering an open water swim Monday after nationals so we may find out this year. In the spirit of cooperation, the Open Water Committee worked with the Championship Comittee to make this happen and for it to be the 1-mile national championship for 2009. Mark, I like open water swimming just fine, as you know, but I think it complicates things to worry too much about it when trying to find a site for nationals. It should be a second (or third) consideration; if it works, that's great. By the way, I really do appreciate the work you have done on the PR bid. It is nice to have options!

I may be wrong, but I see from some of your posts that you think in primarily the competitive mode. There is nothing wrong with that, I am only establishing a baseline. USMS is made up of over 75% non-competitive swimmers. I do not call them fitness, because I presume that even the highly competitive swimmers derive some fitness benefit from the activity. We cannot ignore them to charge about only looking for competition venues, but have to balance our efforts in order to serve all of the membership. This results some times in no one being happy. Michael, I am very confused by this paragraph. Are you saying that consideration for the location of Nationals should also consider the non-competiive USMS members? If so, why? Isn't Nationals a swim meet and by that fact a competitive affair? Therefor only the competitive swimmers would attend? If that was the case, then you could hold Nationals in Upper Slobovia and you would get a large percentage of the competition contingent. BUT......... For a moment here, let's pretend that Nationals are about increasing the participation, then you have to consider methods to draw out the non-competition folks. And rather than put Nationals in non-attractive locales (and I for one, consider Fresno a non-attractive locale, we can have a private discussion on that one if you wish), consideration has to be given to incentives to come and see what a Nationals is like. Speaking for myself (the only person I CAN speak for), having Nationals in locales that offer more than just a swim meet can only be a positive thing. I don't have a long history of attending Nationals as I just started in Masters a year ago but I have attended both Austin and Portland. Maybe that was just first year euphoria that I attended both. I seriously doubt I will be able to do that again unless one of the Nationals is within easy driving distance. But I do plan on attending 1 Nationals a year until I leave this planet and so I have to evaluate the cost-benefit for SCY and LCM. And for me, 2009's winner is Indy. For the following reasons, in no apparent order: - It's closer, I can drive to Indy in less time than it would take me to travel to Fresno. (9 hour total drive, when I want to leave versus 11+ hour total plane trip with limited options) - It's indoors - I don't do well in outdoor, open air venues. - There are things for my family to do there (museums, a nice local zoo, etc.) while I am swimming. - More of my friends will be attending Indy than Fresno. But, in my limited experience with USMS, it appears to me (there may be things going on that I am not aware of but as this is MY perception, it is 100% accurate) that USMS is failing in it's primary responsibility concerning Nationals. And that is to make Nationals as attractive AS POSSIBLE to all USMS members and in doing so, to possibly attract new members. If Clovis was the only SCY bid for 2009, then so be it. But WHY was it the only bid? What is USMS doing to reach out to it's 44,000+ members to try to HELP generate more bids. I know what folks here such as Mark, Paul, etc. are doing and that is fantastic but where are the indications that USMS leadership is doing something about it? It might be out there, but I can't see it from where I am.

Maybe West Coast folks are more inclined to put out the effort than East Coast folks? Just a thought - not saying East Coasters are lazy or anything like that so don't go off on me. :whiteflag: Wow Jim, this is taking passive-agressive to new heights...or depths! :laugh2: I'm surprised the WC folks can squeeze it all in what with "latte hour," surfing, and beach volley... ;)