Overextension - fault or not

I now understand that masters swimmers actually believe they are supposed to be looking at the bottom of the pool. I guess I will just have to get used to the collisions and start swimming with a helmet and shoulder pads :). Alternatively, you could try (1) keeping to the right, including pushing off the wall after a turn on your new right, which was your left before you turned; (2) making sure you are in the correct lane for your speed and in the correct place in your lane, behind faster people and in front of slower people; (3) leaving five seconds between you and the person in front of you; (4) not stopping mid-length; (5) keeping to the far left corner of the lane if you stop at the wall mid-swim (the side you came in on) so that people who are going to turn rather than stop can come in and turn and push off to their right; and (6) paying attention to your peripheral vision. If you are not doing all six of these things, then you are to blame for most if not all of the collisions you are in. You are also impairing your teammates' efforts to practice proper head position because they are constantly having to look around anxiously to see where you are. BUT: Sorry, Lindsay, for contributing to a hijack of your thread. Seems to me that the "overextension" that Dave is talking about is what happens when people try to feel as if they are reaching out really far, but actually they are not rolling enough: They cross over the midline and wind up fishtailing. I don't think it is a function of hand/arm entry position as much as of torso rotation.

Here's him doing a 200 M race (Australian trials). Shows him from different views. Your point about the overextended arm (prior to water entry) being a sign of fatigue might be valid. www.youtube.com/watch Check out the slow motion of the breakout and following few strokes around the 5:30 mark in the video, his right arm is very near to full extension when the hand enters. Nothing like the earlier video where he was entering with his arm at a much steeper angle. That said, one has to remember that even for a single swimmer the stroke will vary with the distance being swum, his 100m or 200m stroke isn't identical to how he swims in the 800m.

One of worst things I've noticed in masters swimmers is head position. They always run into objects that are directly in their path because most of them are probably looking all the way back to their feet. I have no idea why this is so common amongst us old people. If you stop in the lane, you will get run into b/c the person behind isn't actually looking at what's ahead. Even at the end of a swim when your standing at the wall you will get run into b/c they are loking down and back. Basically, at all of my masters practices, you will get run into. In college, this was never an issue b/c we didn't bury our heads. It's like people are swimming drunk out there. How can you possibly swim freestyle and not know what's in front of you? Do some good today and tell a fellow master's swimmer to pull their head out of their *ss. The life you save just might be your own. People shouldn't looking at their feet BUT they should definitly be looking more at the bottom of the pool than at the wall they are swimming towards. You must not have been following the change in head position over the last several years. You won't find many, if any that agree with looking at the far wall anymore.

The head is bouyant I think? Brain tissue is mostly fat. Perhaps just resting the head on the water would be natural. I tend to tense my neck up though. It's unnecessary and causes me neck pain during long workouts. I'm still unnecessarily tense in the water in general I suspect. Rather painful way to train.

The head is bouyant only if you are an airhead. Head positon of a floater will be diferrent then the head position of a sinker. The biggest problem that hapens with over extention is, elbow dropping. There is no catchall head position. Head up slightly will sometimes lift the legs. Head down will sometimes be okay. Some times if the head is up slightly the wole body sinks. The same with head to low the legs can sink.

I don't know how head position relates specifically to elbows, but it's pretty easy to prove to yourself that having your head high will result in a lowering of your hips.

To each his own. If it works for you then do it. I don't buy that this is what they're teaching now at the elite college programs. I might buy it if it were on sale, but even then, it would have to be at a good discount. If you have Spidey Sense and can avoid running into me, that's all that I ask :).

To each his own. If it works for you then do it. I don't buy that this is what they're teaching now at the elite college programs. I might buy it if it were on sale, but even then, it would have to be at a good discount. If you have Spidey Sense and can avoid running into me, that's all that I ask :). Well, why don't ya go watch some videos with Richard Quick, David Marsh and some videos produced by Glenn Mills at GoSwim.tv They ALL talk about head position being in line with the spine, looking at the bottom of the pool. But, as you said, to each his own.

I think Glenn would ask some to raise their head if it was to low in the water and vice versa at times. I would rather hear his comment on head position. When I watched some videos of Terry he does not always follow his own rules about head position when he is racing circumstances do change the situation. Looking at the bottom is not swimming with your head completely under water. Some will swim with the head higher then others and some will swim with the head lower. I also would not put words in Richard Quicks mouth about what he says. He could be asking a swimmer to lower his head when it is too high. I am sure he would also ask somone with their head too low in the water to raise the head. The head, the body and the legs must always be kept as far as possible within streamline positions.

:D Check out this video, and you'll see that he does in fact get his hand into the water before full extension. This is one of my favorite Thorpe videos, the guy has an unbelievably smooth and relaxed stroke. www.youtube.com/watch This one as well (it's way too short a clip at 7") but it shows his hand first, elbow high entry then into extension. And when really accelerates and goes for it, he will get a bit of that bobbing motion (very noticeable in Phelps). His head will not be in a straight line with his body axis; he won't be looking down at the bottom of the pool but slightly ahead and his power is such that he's riding high (the small of his back would be dry if it weren't for his roll). In all the "real" races Videos (as opposed to "demo" and "training" videos), he's always swimming with pure EVF although I'm under the impression that his right elbow EVFs just a bit more than his left. I've tried compensating for camera angles, but it's just my impression. Moreover, Thorpe's longitudinal (long) axis is never a straight line www.youtube.com/watch and look where he's looking and where the water level is.