Overextension - fault or not

In this video: www.youtube.com/watch Dave Scott talks about four common faults: head position overreaching overextension dropped elbow In this video: www.youtube.com/watch the videographer analyzes Ian Thorpe's stroke, and while I disagree with much of his analysis it is great slow motion video of Thorpe. BUT, Thorpe enters his right arm fully extended with the elbow and forearm actually entering the water just before the hand does, see attached video frames. This is exactly what Dave Scott describes as overextension. I am wondering whether it actually makes any difference how you enter the arm if you are fully extending the arm before starting the catch? The end of that second video is trippy. It's like the matrix, man. That aside, if you look at 8 swimmers, you'll see 8 different entry points. That's really one of those things that you have to test to see what works best for you.

I think it's a fault. Just try to put your arm straight out like Thorpe's and then bring it down as in a catch compared with doing the same thing with a slightly bent elbow. I think you'll notice much more power with the elbow slightly bent because you're employing the pecs.

How can you possibly swim freestyle and not know what's in front of you? I've got to disagree with you. I think ideally your head should be in line with your spine and that means looking directly down at the bottom of the pool. If you do this it's very difficult to look straight ahead. If anything I think swimmers (all swimmers, not just masters) have a tendency to look forward a little too much--simply because they want to look ahead even though it compromises body position a little bit.

I think that the Thorpe video is a little misleading, because you don't get a great view of when exactly his hands go in when you are looking from below. After literally tens of hours reviewing Thorpe's videos, I have become the foremost expert at knowing the nuances of his stroke while failing miserably to emulate it. :D Check out this video, and you'll see that he does in fact get his hand into the water before full extension. This is one of my favorite Thorpe videos, the guy has an unbelievably smooth and relaxed stroke. www.youtube.com/watch

Do you keep your elbow slightly bent even when your arm is fully extended or do you extend and then bend? See, that's the thing. I don't think you should really extend fully. It's sort of like extending the finish of the pull down past your hips, you just aren't getting much extra propulsion during those last few inches and maybe you should just think about recovering the arm at the hip instead of past it.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. It's not clear to me that you're not.

Well, I would argue that that is not his racing stroke, he's doing a nice relaxed demonstration of breathing. It is of course possible that the other clips are from the end of some race where he's exhausted and his technique is falling apart, but I suspect not. And yes, it is a bit hard to tell exactly when the hands enter watching the video, even in slow motion, but I watched it frame by frame and it isn't hard to see that way. Look at the images I attached to the first post, one is the frame before his hand enters, the second is the frame after. Oh, and by the way, see the guy at the very end of the second video, although I wouldn't say he has good form if you watch the way he is trying to put a lot of effort into the pull you can imagine that he is probably puffing and panting by the time he finishes a 50, a bit of what I was trying to get at in the other thread - it's like he is trying to climb a hill in a high gear by extreme application of force. Here's him doing a 200 M race (Australian trials). Shows him from different views. Your point about the overextended arm (prior to water entry) being a sign of fatigue might be valid. www.youtube.com/watch

I've got to disagree with you. I think ideally your head should be in line with your spine and that means looking directly down at the bottom of the pool. If you do this it's very difficult to look straight ahead. If anything I think swimmers (all swimmers, not just masters) have a tendency to look forward a little too much--simply because they want to look ahead even though it compromises body position a little bit. Thorpe definitely is looking forward when he swims. I've always wondered how he does that.

That said, one has to remember that even for a single swimmer the stroke will vary with the distance being swum, his 100m or 200m stroke isn't identical to how he swims in the 800m. I think this might be a key point. I think fully extending the arm is much more of a distance stroke where you are trying to maximize the glide. Sprinters probably want to get their arm in the water in a matter where they can begin the catch as soon as possible and I think that translates to not fully extending the arm.

One of worst things I've noticed in masters swimmers is head position. They always run into objects that are directly in their path because most of them are probably looking all the way back to their feet. I have no idea why this is so common amongst us old people. If you stop in the lane, you will get run into b/c the person behind isn't actually looking at what's ahead. Even at the end of a swim when your standing at the wall you will get run into b/c they are loking down and back. Basically, at all of my masters practices, you will get run into. In college, this was never an issue b/c we didn't bury our heads. It's like people are swimming drunk out there. How can you possibly swim freestyle and not know what's in front of you? Do some good today and tell a fellow master's swimmer to pull their head out of their *ss. The life you save just might be your own. You shouldn't be stopping in the lane or standing at the wall in other swimmers' paths. The courteous thing to do is get out of the way let them finish to the wall. I guess Phelps is drunk all the time, since he buries his head. That's the secret!