After seeing a woman break 24 seconds and I think we can stop the discussion of "IF" the LZR suit is faster and start thinking "how much faster".
The previous line of suits (Fastskin and so on) were pretty similiar to a shaved swimmer. Sure - they do feel like they make you float, but overall the times seemed to move along "in line" with what I would expect to see in terms of improvements in the sport. If the previous suits would have been that much faster than shaving, you would have never seen people just using the legskins. By the way - for us Masters swimmers there was always the added benefit of keeping in all the "extra layers of skin".
So how much faster are the LZR suits ?
If I had to guess based on the results so far, I would say 0.25 to 0.30 per 50 and double that for the 100. I can see the Bernard going 48 low in the 100 and I can see Sullivan getting close or just breaking the 50 record. It makes sense that Libby Lenton would swim a 24.2 or so in the 50.
I think one of the top regular teams out there should do a test - you need a good amount of world class swimmers training together to be able to do a test. Here is the test I would propose:
8-10 swimmers
2 days of testing
4x50 on 10 minutes all out
Day 1 - swim 2 with a Fastskin2 followed by 2 with the LZR
Day 2 - swim 2 with the LZR followed by 2 with the Fastskin2
Get the averages of all 10 swimmers - maybe drop the high and low and there you go.
Why do the test ? I would HAVE to know. Swimming is a big part of your life and you just set a massive PR using this new technology - my very first question would be " How much was me and how much was the suit?"?
The LZR sounds very different than the precursor Pro with its support girdling and multiple areas of compression. The Pro is just very lightweight. I'm wondering how people get into the LZRs ...
Going backward in time to outlaw ALL bodyskins?!
Masters swimmers are all growed up and can wear what they want. If you prefer jammers or tanks, wear them. If you like bodysuits, wear them. But there seems to be a lot of ragging on the bodysuit wearers by the jammer wearers -- who sometimes insist bodysuits make no difference, but then complain when others wear them. Chris, we'll have no trouble recognizing each other at zones. I'll be the short backstroker with an old black Pro; you'll be the somewhat short backstroker with the black jammer.
I also have yet to hear any female say she prefers a tank.
It would seem to me, technically, that the KISS way of evaluating friction of body, and ANY suit, would be to eliminate the swimming aspect and tether oneself in an Endless Pool and MEASURE pull force, ,i.e. resistance, at various current velocities (which are simple to control).
Obviously the measured resistance may be a function of the water speed which is not being considered in anything I have seen here...yet.
It may not be linear.
(I am a retired Physics Instructor who did quite a bit of swimming many years ago. see www.SdogV.com..I am now 80.)
I'm not sure why the fact we're adults has any bearing on this argument. I just think at the point where you've got to wonder if the guy next to you beat you because he was wearing a fancier suit rather than talent, technique and training then the sport has lost something. The only way to avoid this is to require a standard suit.
I think people kind of joke about making everyone swim nude, and obviously that won't happen, but honestly it's not a bad idea. I'd do it if that was the rule.
Masters swimmers are all growed up and can wear what they want. If you prefer jammers or tanks, wear them. If you like bodysuits, wear them. But there seems to be a lot of ragging on the bodysuit wearers by the jammer wearers -- who sometimes insist bodysuits make no difference, but then complain when others wear them.
Not complaining at all, I don't think there is any closing of Pandora's box, I simply think that the rules should be updated to match the real world.
I believe that there is a lot of double-talk from FINA, how the suits are not buoyant and cannot be proven to aid performance. I think the only reason they make the latter statement is because of the existing rule against speed assistance and because the other companies are whining that Speedo broke the rules.
Of course, I'll continue to tease those who wear body suits (males, anyway; females have to wear SOMETHING and it may as well be a technical suit) but that's all in fun. I don't really believe they make that much difference -- the LZR may be different, I can't really say -- so I don't care who wears them. Maybe I'll try them myself one day (though the prospect of taking 20 minutes to put on a suit does nothing for me).
The LZR sounds very different than the precursor Pro with its support girdling and multiple areas of compression. The Pro is just very lightweight. I'm wondering how people get into the LZRs ...
Going backward in time to outlaw ALL bodyskins?!
Masters swimmers are all growed up and can wear what they want. If you prefer jammers or tanks, wear them. If you like bodysuits, wear them. But there seems to be a lot of ragging on the bodysuit wearers by the jammer wearers -- who sometimes insist bodysuits make no difference, but then complain when others wear them.
I also have yet to hear any female say she prefers a tank.
"support girdling and multiple areas of compression"
A little light bulb went on, and it just occurred to me who the real target audience of the suit is...
What's the over/under for "% of masters swimmers wearing a LZR in 2 years"? I'll throw out an off-the-cuff estimate of 65.
I'm not sure why the fact we're adults has any bearing on this argument. I just think at the point where you've got to wonder if the guy next to you beat you because he was wearing a fancier suit rather than talent, technique and training then the sport has lost something. The only way to avoid this is to require a standard suit.
I think people kind of joke about making everyone swim nude, and obviously that won't happen, but honestly it's not a bad idea. I'd do it if that was the rule.
Because we're masters swimmers and there is already an uneven playing field. There are so many things that factor into who beats who: training time, ability to train, ability to cross train, how many massages you get, whether you're taking creatine, whether you're injured or sick, whether you weight lift, height, genetics, etc. The suit is just another variable. And, at the higher levels, most masters are wearing technical suits anyway.
I could do the nude racing, but women with the Himalayan issue would not like that one bit! That would just be another variable in determining speed ...
Sure, it's a costume...designed by NASA and tested in water flumes (or whatever)...
I've read at least a couple of articles that have said the role of NASA in the design of the suit has been greatly exaggerated, that their involvement was limited to material testing. I realize that's a digression.
I think the question is, when "reasonable interpretation" runs up against multi-million dollar sponsorships, which wins? It seems to me that a trade-off has been made, FINA has brought in companies that stand to make millions of dollars in the swimsuit market and FINA has in turn got a slice of those millions of dollars in the form of sponsorship. Yes, there is a price to be paid by everyone involved in the sport, but FINA has been able to use the money to give the entire sport a higher profile, and provide swimmers with opportunities to go pro that wouldn't otherwise be there. People will differ on whether it is a good trade off.
Personally I don't think you should be allowed to use a suit in a World Record swim until it is generally available, nor should you be able to use it to meet qualifying times until it is generally available. It's not fair that swimmers in some countries can achieve Olympic qualifying times wearing the suit while the suits are not available in other countries.
Another point is that you really need to look at the FINA rules rather than USMS rules in this circumstance.
I'm not sure why the fact we're adults has any bearing on this argument. I just think at the point where you've got to wonder if the guy next to you beat you because he was wearing a fancier suit rather than talent, technique and training then the sport has lost something. The only way to avoid this is to require a standard suit.
Boo flippin hoo. I'm an adult and participate in a sport I love and can spend as much as I want. "Require a standard suit" - that's comical and really contrary to making the sport more appealing to more people. Yeah, enforce a dress code on adults who want to get fit, that's a superb idea and sure to grow the ranks!
