After seeing a woman break 24 seconds and I think we can stop the discussion of "IF" the LZR suit is faster and start thinking "how much faster".
The previous line of suits (Fastskin and so on) were pretty similiar to a shaved swimmer. Sure - they do feel like they make you float, but overall the times seemed to move along "in line" with what I would expect to see in terms of improvements in the sport. If the previous suits would have been that much faster than shaving, you would have never seen people just using the legskins. By the way - for us Masters swimmers there was always the added benefit of keeping in all the "extra layers of skin".
So how much faster are the LZR suits ?
If I had to guess based on the results so far, I would say 0.25 to 0.30 per 50 and double that for the 100. I can see the Bernard going 48 low in the 100 and I can see Sullivan getting close or just breaking the 50 record. It makes sense that Libby Lenton would swim a 24.2 or so in the 50.
I think one of the top regular teams out there should do a test - you need a good amount of world class swimmers training together to be able to do a test. Here is the test I would propose:
8-10 swimmers
2 days of testing
4x50 on 10 minutes all out
Day 1 - swim 2 with a Fastskin2 followed by 2 with the LZR
Day 2 - swim 2 with the LZR followed by 2 with the Fastskin2
Get the averages of all 10 swimmers - maybe drop the high and low and there you go.
Why do the test ? I would HAVE to know. Swimming is a big part of your life and you just set a massive PR using this new technology - my very first question would be " How much was me and how much was the suit?"?
Is it possible if you pay $550.00 for a swim suit you must swim faster to prove the suit was worth the expenditure.
I'm guessing no one who has set a world record wearing the LZR had to pay for the suit.
it doesn't take a degree in statistics, only common sense to see that the LZR almost certaintly has an impact. It almost seems like some here are trying to convince themselves the LZR doesn't have an impact to avoid purchasing it. I wouldn't spend $550 on a swim suit either. But I'm not going to pretend that I don't believe the LZR has a positive impact on performance simply because it has not been proven in a rigorous manner.
One last try then I'm done, I swear.
"Common sense" is a spectacularly poor guide to truth. Experiments with surprising and unexpected results happen ALL THE TIME. That's partly why they do them.
In the sport of swimming, there have been many things that everyone KNEW was true that later turned out to be nothing of the sort. Beliefs about training, stroke mechanics, the value of kicking, etc etc have been rexamined based on more rigorous study: experiments and theory. It is great to see that the disciplines of exercise physiology and the science of swimming are getting more attention and respect.
This is one reason (the other being the conflict of interest) that I was so turned off by Schuberts statement that the LZR was worth 2% based on little real evidence and no systematic study. I simply cannot imagine Doc Counsilman making a similar statement using the same data.
Do the LZRs enhance performance? If I had to bet, I would probably say yes, although not nearly to the degree that many here seem to believe. But that is really just an educated guess and I may be wrong: maybe there is no effect, or maybe the effect is larger than I think. I still have a lot of questions and will keep an open mind.
That's all I'm advocating of any of you before you "close the books" on this and harden your opinions into irrefutable fact.
I am not sure if I am willing to go quite as far as Jazz with the LZR/B70, but I do think the benefits of tech suits are way overstated especially for athletes that are extremely fit. Has anyone tried swimming the same event at a tapered meet wearing briefs (say a relay leadoff) and then the same event in the latest tech suit? Actually, I think the opposite would be more interesting - swim the regular race in briefs when it means more and swim the relay with the tech suit to see if you could match the time. I think the math geeks just want to know what the real difference is, not the hyped difference. All the numbers say there is a difference, but how much? Wasn't that the title of the thread to begin with.
I do think Phelps would have swam virtually the same time in the 100 fly without the legskins. He would swim to win regardless of the suit. Would he have won without legskins, who knows, but I bet it would still be close. If Cavic would have finished better, he wouldn't have won the first time. Reverse the logic, why didn't Phelps wear a full LZR in the finals of the 100 fly in the Olympics? I assume because he didn't think there was an advantage to doing so. In fact, one might infer that he must think it is a disadvantage. He had an awful lot at stake ($1 million, at least) in that event to make such a stupid decision based on normal tech suit logic, right?
Tim
Has anyone tried swimming the same event at a tapered meet wearing briefs (say a relay leadoff) and then the same event in the latest tech suit?
Not a LZR, but I compared the FSII body suit and Aquablade jammers in a trials/finals meet when I was tapered/shaved. There was no discernible difference. Four weeks later I tapered again and swam in briefs, going slightly faster in the 100 back, slightly slower in the 100 fly, and doing 10-year bests in 200 back and 500 free.
But I have heard others who have tried this and did better with the tech suits.
I will probably do something similar again with the B70 next spring.
Added: one thing I should mention...I'm fairly laid back at meets and even so, it was a little stressful for me to do an experiment like this at a rested meet. At a time when you should be focusing on your events and all that, you're worrying about which suit to wear and whether or not it affects your ability to qualify for an evening swim (the meet is fairly competitive for me). So, on the one hand, I believe that the suits should be tested under race conditions and when the stakes matter; on the other hand, it is psychologically hard to do (at least, I found it so). This just underlies some of the difficulties in actually testing the suits. The fact that it wasn't my only rested meet of the SCY season made it a little more bearable.
What your stats are not taking into account is that as you approach the far end of the spectrum in times such as a Michael Phelps the time improvements are typically mush smaller...and far more significant.
An old fat guy that goes 2:00 and is around 17 seconds slower that the fastest time presently able to be swum by a human is far more likely to see much bigger time drops than someone swimming around the 1:48 range.
The suit may only have a .05% effect for a Phelps but may have a 1-3% or more for people far off that end of the spectrum.
I would lay a small bet that Phelps would not have won the 100 fly in a brief.
Although, I don't think Cavic was wearing an LZR.
Is anyone still arguing that an LZR or B70 doesn't give an advantage over a brief? The same confounding variables are in effect.
Is anyone still arguing that an LZR or B70 doesn't give an advantage over a brief? The same confounding variables are in effect.
I am. Anyone who thinks briefs are slow probably hasn't done a full taper and shave swim in a brief lately. Tech suits are just security blankets for swimmers.
One last try: I am not saying that it helps FOR SURE. I am saying that MOST LIKELY, i.e. probably, i.e. if you had to bet on it, etc. that it does. That was my point. Not that anyone knows for sure, but that, most likely it does.
One last try then I'm done, I swear.
Do the LZRs enhance performance? If I had to bet, I would probably say yes, although not nearly to the degree that many here seem to believe. But that is really just an educated guess and I may be wrong: maybe there is no effect, or maybe the effect is larger than I think. I still have a lot of questions and will keep an open mind.
That's all I'm advocating of any of you before you "close the books" on this and harden your opinions into irrefutable fact.
Brian,
You have convinced me, this idea suits your budget.
I am. Anyone who thinks briefs are slow probably hasn't done a full taper and shave swim in a brief lately. Tech suits are just security blankets for swimmers.
Brian,
You have convinced me, this idea suits your budget.
Yes it does. I spent $80 on a tech suit for Nationals, and I ditched it after my first race because it was just getting in my way. If a LZR or B70 could make me swim faster, it hardly matters, because I can't afford those. That doesn't really bother me, because I'm confident racing in anything.
